Need help choosing between Drumcore and BFD for use in T

[Slacknote]

Oh, I must tell you: if you tried to run Michael Kingston's "Ruffrider" and "Easyrider" kits with the normal soundfont player, maybe it will not work

Solved!
Here's what you should do
Go to Michael's site and download the sampler files.
http://kingstondrums.bombsquad.org/files.html

Then go here and download the sfz mappings
http://www.drealm.info/sfz/Kingston/

Then download the free sfz player!
http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz.htm

There you go!

[sonicsmurf]

Hello Slacknote! Sorry I was busy, I did not reply earlier.
Wow, you solved it! (for users of only a soundfont-player).

I had found the sfz-mappings myself, *but* what I did not realize was that the "sampler files" were needed for that (instead of the "soundfont files"). Anyway, yes it works with the SFZ Player, I tested this and it works.
..So the funny thing is: We are looking for a totally simple solution to have a natural sounding drumkit, and we run into something that is complicated and that you actually have to assemble before you can use it....hahaha

But of course I am not yet happy with this. It must be possible to have all this in a much simpler way. And I will work on a good solution. For example I don't like how the toms are not panned in the sfz-mappings (I want the toms and all other instruments perfectly panned so I can immediately use the kit without grouping things first). And the kickdrum is just a little too loud. And the hi-hats are not really that good, I will try and replace these in my version of a ready-to-use soundfont.
But one thing is true, the ride cymbal in this sample bank is really extremely realistic and "alive". Incredible.

So please bear with me: I will put the kits into one ready-to-use soundfont with 4 banks (NOT for distribution but only for testing), and I will then contact you via PM to check it with you

And thank you for checking these things out!

[Slacknote]

I had found the sfz-mappings myself, *but* what I did not realize was that the "sampler files" were needed for that (instead of the "soundfont files")

So please bare with me: I will put the kits into one ready-to-use soundfont with 4 banks (NOT for distribution but only for testing), and I will then contact you via PM to check it with you

I had that too, but in an extremely rare wave of cleverness I opened the sfz file with notepad and I saw that it refered to the wav-files

So yeah if you could modify it things a bit, it would be even better.
I'm glad I've met you, you're a big help!

[sonicsmurf]

but in an extremely rare wave of cleverness

I opened the sfz file with notepad and I saw that it refered to the wav-files

Yes, and what I did just now is, I put all the .wav samples plus the sfz files into only two folders (one for each kit) and deleted everything else that I don't need. Then I edited the .sfz files so that the file paths "../Samples/" were removed. So now I have the samples and sfz-mappings in compact, single folders.

I am still working on the soundfont thing. -Wait, first I want to say: I absolutely LOVE this sound of the Kingston drums!! Damn, every tune in which I insert one of the kits in the drum track, will immediately have so much feeling and attitude in it. It really rocks!

Now the soundfont creation, yes it is a little complicated. Because not only do I have to adjust the pannings (left/right mappings must be made perfect and ready-to-use!!), the key-mappings (better multi-layering of the samples), the volumes (e.g. the kicks and hi-hats are in some cases too loud), but most of all: I have to find the same volume levels for all the 4 "natural drumkits". So in the end, I will have one soundfont with 4 integrated banks, and when I switch to an other kit, the sound volume will be the same. When this is done, everything will be easy to work with.

Also, I am extremely aware of a few sound details that are not yet perfect. Just one example, the two higher toms are not as good as the floor tom sound, so I will replace the two higher toms in one of the sets, probably with Premier drum samples, but make sure that in the end it will again sound like one drumkit. Also the open hi-hat is not perfect and I try to replace that one. - You see, that's another reason why I am not sure that BFD is right for me: I also need the possibility to throw out a sample that I do not find perfect for the impression I want to have, and put in a new sample.
Sure, with the soundfonts it's not as easy as with BFD.... but on the other hand it's much less CPU-consuming, and I really just need one or two perfect kits in the end. Again: The "Rider" kits rock when you use them in a mix!!

[Slacknote]

I will have one soundfont with 4 integrated banks, and when I switch to an other kit, the sound volume will be the same. When this is done, everything will be easy to work with.

Cool can't wait, can you hit me up on AIM please, I tried to track down your contact info but couldn't find it.

[sonicsmurf]

Don't worry we keep in touch, slack node

In the meantime I tried to find the best volume levels for all the kits, quite difficult but I am certain it will be worth it. So I am trying to make a soundfont in which e.g. the kickdrum of all drumsets will have the exact same volume. The goal is that when I have all other instruments in Tracktion I will be able to simply switch the drumkit to an other "soundfont bank" within the same soundfont, and the other kit plays - at exactly the same volume levels - so there will be NO changing of settings. Only one click. Then it will be compact.

And I found out that the Ruffrider kit is the one that adds most "life" to the tunes. Well yes it sounds a little distorted and rough but it will be my basic kit, it sounds so much more alive than the NS7 for example. So the Ruffrider should be great for anything in the region of R'n'B, Rock, Jazzrock, D+B etc. For Reggae it will definitely be the Easyrider kit, actually I hardly ever heard sampled hi-hats and rimshots that are so good for this style. And the GoldDrums for everything else (especially Pop). And the NS-7 for Jazz and ballads. But I still have a feeling that if I would take the best sampled from each, and combine the samples and improve this during a few weeks, in the end there would be one kit that could be used universally for all these styles and it would always sound good!
Bear with me, it's not easy to make a soundfont in which all 4 kits can be directly used with just a switch of the sound bank (same panning, same per-instrument volume levels etc.)

[FoxV]

Hey, let me play!

You guys are doing great stuff. Just what I need.

I tried using Ruff & EasyRider, but ran into just the problem you're talking about. I'll do what you propose, slacknote, that should be very cool. Thanks for figuring that out.

In the meantime, is Vienna actually free? Maybe that's a way to go. I love your idea, sonicsmurf, of creating one soundfont with several usable sets to switch between. Very cool. That's exactly what I want. Not tons of choices, but two to four good sounding kits.

I listened to GoldDrums last night. It didn't blow me away, but it was quite good. Of course, I was hearing it dry, with no effects, and I wasn't trying to use it in a real song. I think that's key for me to keep in mind--how the kits sound in a tune.

Thanks for your help, guys! Your direction is just the one I want to go in, so it's so helpful to hear your ideas. I'd been wondering if soundfonts would really do the trick for me, and I think they will.

Peace,
Fox

[sonicsmurf]

Hey FoxV

Cool... so we are already three musicians with similar goals (to find/make/share the perfect realistic drumkit for super-simple use in Tracktion)

The Ruff/EasyRider soundbanks do work. But at the moment it's tedious to set them up. If you can wait a little, I will have the soundfont with all kits ready.
As a soundfont editor, I am using "Viena" (not "Vienna" which also exists). This editor works fine and is free. A download link is here: http://www.saunalahti.fi/kru99/About_SynthFont.htm

I love your idea, sonicsmurf, of creating one soundfont with several usable sets to switch between. Very cool. That's exactly what I want. Not tons of choices, but two to four good sounding kits.

Exactly. Must be possible. *And* with great results.

I listened to GoldDrums last night. It didn't blow me away, but it was quite good.

I agree: it did not blow me away either. But when I boosted the midrange frequencies a little, and then added Blockfish and VintageWarmer (which actually add more treble to the drumkit sound), it sounded very good. Inside a whole mix, it sounded just like a normal drumkit. - Which I want!
I want a virtual drumkit that sounds natural and like a normal drummer, one that I can use in anything I want to record. And I am working on making that soundfont

Peace,
Greg

[FoxV]

This is cool stuff! I'm so thankful to find you guys!

And thanks for the Viena link. I'll check it out.

[bassface]

I'm happy that you guys have found a good solution, but I must say that it doesn't sound very "simple", which was my original goal. I'm willing to pay for a program but don't want to have to create files and directories and go through numerous programs and integrate them to make it work.

Nobody's tried drumcore?

[Slacknote]

I'm happy that you guys have found a good solution, but I must say that it doesn't sound very "simple", which was my original goal. I'm willing to pay for a program but don't want to have to create files and directories and go through numerous programs and integrate them to make it work.

Nobody's tried drumcore?

Wait till greg is ready with the soundfonts!

[sonicsmurf]

I'm happy that you guys have found a good solution, but I must say that it doesn't sound very "simple", which was my original goal.

Yes, this is quite obvious. You see, I have not yet found the perfect solution. But when the soundfont with the 4 banks is done, it will be *absolutely* simple to handle it, and far less CPU-consuming than BFD or Drumcore.
I am a self-employed programmer, it's not *that* hard to make a soundfont, but I want it to be as perfect as possible (pannings, volumes etc.) It will soon be ready.
My understanding is that a soundfont is nothing special, it's just "a sample bank" with a few keymappings and settings integrated in the same file where all the audio samples are stored. The good thing is that you can at anytime remove a sound (a sample) if there's one you don't like, and you simply replace it by your own preferred sound (e.g. a better snaredrum) and then save your new soundfont again, and you have again "your own drumkit", all new and in one file, and just the way you want it.
(Something I am not sure you can as easily do with Drumcore etc.)
Or you improve the panning of e.g. the hi-hat, to make the overall drumkit panorama wider. Or you include an auto-randomizing function for just one sound (e.g. the kickdrum) which is actually possible in the soundfont specification. And so on. You can store all these settings in the soundfont, in a single file, together with all the audio samples. Cool.

- Oh, you could actually do the same things with the built-in Tracktion sampler! But you would have to map the samples and set the pannings and volumes etc. It's just that with a soundfont, everything will be in a very compact form: just load one single file, and it's immediately ready. (and it loads very, very fast compared with the bigger packs like BFD).
So it's really not such a dumb thing to try it with soundfonts. It's actually a smart and compact format. T2 will come with a free soundfont player. It is not a toy.

Again, the scope of this is to become more musically productive. To make music again. To stop the endless experimenting with the possibilities - instead of making music. To have stuff finished at the end of the day. To get more stuff done. To realize that musicians with a hundred virtual instruments and ten thousand buttons to press tend to make less music than musicians with a limited choice (which actually forces them to concentrate on the music itself and fosters their creativity).

If all I need is one or two realistic drumkits, I really do not need a whopping 9 Gigabytes (Drumcore) of stuff just to have a silly old virtual drummer! Of course I love drums - but they are not so important for the music. My other instruments, guitar and bass and keys, are much more important! So why should I fiddle with the drumkit settings all the time, there is no reason. You see? This may appear contradictory, but I simply want a virtual drumkit that is perfect, and then I can forget it! Because I simply use it, and it sounds great, and that's all there is about the drums. This is my goal.

The soundfont with all 4 realistic drumkits will be around 50MB, not 9GB. That means that I can load other stuff into Tracktion and do not use too much CPU power just for a simple drumkit.

Now, please understand that Drumcore is great, and it even gives you the *most* authentic sound! This is true because it contains drum patterns recorded by real drummers and with their own, real drumkits (and often a world-class drummer has his own custom-made drumset). This means: Nothing could sound more realistic than that. -- But: For me as a musician and songwriter - I would not call myself "composer" - Drumcore is not what I need or WANT to make my own music. Nooo!

Why? Drumcore is "loop-based"! This means that I am forced to use the software's pre-defined drum-patterns and fills -- even though these patterns and accentuations might not really match my own stuff that I have already recorded with other instruments! So, the "standard" rhythms and loops that Drumcore gives you are definitely good and professional, but, what if you have just composed a very creative tune with some unusual beats or accentuations in it? Try and produce the Jazz standard "Take Five" with Drumcore. Bascially, you depend on the patterns that are recorded in there, and unless you go through the trouble of workarounds, it's like designing your own website with "templates" from templatemonster.com, instead of being able to design every aspect of it yourself and according to your own taste.
Of course the result will, in a way, seem professional.
But I want to make my own stuff. I want to make *my* music, with *my* own beats that will match *my* material. - Otherwise, I could simply BUY instrument track after instrument track and throw everything into Tracktion -- and claim that I had played it all! No? Yes? Including the solo in the middle that sounds like played by the world's greatest saxophone player - because I also bought the "Saxcore" and I prentend that I played it. And my song will even including the coolest vocals and singing, of course I made it with "Singcore" and claim that it was my own singing!! Just kidding. But you see what I am trying to tell? It would be one big lie.
And that's not why I want to make music.

Heck, it's pathetic enough that I am using samples and not a real drumkit, so AT LEAST let me program my *own* patterns!!
Consequently, I do not want Drumcore. Maybe it's good for others, yet not for me.

[Slacknote]

... because I also bought "Saxcore" and "Singcore"

All you need then is "Audience core"

[sonicsmurf]

Sorry Slack Node, forgot dat one. Oh, and the clap core.

EDIT: What I really need is the Typo Core

[Slacknote]

Sorry Slack Node, forgot dat one. Oh, and the clap core.

EDIT: What I really need is the Typo Core

The most important one is the "groupie core" that's why I'm in the music bizz