Need help choosing between Drumcore and BFD for use in T

[bassface]

I'm a total newb when it comes to virtual instrument recording, but circumstances dictate that I'll be using virtual drums for the forseeable future so I need to get something set up. I'll be doing real-time bass guitars keyboard and voice, perhaps with some midi keyboard stuff as well.

I'm interested in organic and realistic sounding drums and I don't want to devote a lot of time learning how to enter and manipulate millions of parameters. I'll be doing some of my own beat creation, but am very open to using pre-made beats. After looking at a bunch of applications I'm so far most interested in Drumcore and BF as they seem to be less tweak-oriented than most of the others.

Drumcore is appealing to me because of the multitude of grooves and kits played by many great drummers. The interface looks easy to work with.

BFD is appealing because of the ability to control pan and miking on individual drums which is not available on Drumcore.

What I'm really hoping to learn from you all is how easy each application is to use on Tracktion. Drumcore has some very convenient import-ability for DP and PT (especially PT). I've got PT, but like the rest of you I've been patiently waiting for T2 and would hate to switch to PT just when we're about to get T2.

I guess my real question is this: What does it take (how do you) use BFD and Drumcore in T on a Mac?

Are they plug-ins, virtual instruments, something else? Which one would seem easier to implement as far as T is concerned?

Any help bringing me up to speed would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[FoxV]

I'd suggest you add the RMIV Lin Plug that comes bundled with T2 as a possible candidate. I don't know any of the programs you mention first hand, but my guess is that all three plugs will "play nice" with T2 (famous last words ). The key issue in my mind is which plug fits your needs best. No easy thing to figure out, and usually requires some real, hands-on experience. ...but you knew all that already.

[bassface]

Nice signature, FoxV. I've been meaning to make a signature in reply as well; nice job on yours.

I looked at RMIV on their website and couldn't make heads or tails of it. I've read people saying that it's easy but I didn't get a good feeling from the website.

Good to know it comes with T2; maybe I'll use a combination of programs, but my goal is to keep it simple.

[sonicsmurf]

I'm interested in organic and realistic sounding drums and I don't want to devote a lot of time learning how to enter and manipulate millions of parameters.

Hi Bassface (David I assume ! Same situation here! I used to teach drumming, so I know every aspect of the real sound. And I am interested in *making real music* (especially songwriting with several instruments since 20 years!) and I do not want my time and creative power sucked away by the tech stuff and too many possibilites, so it simply *must* be compact to operate!

And my goal when working with virtual instruments (or sample banks) and with Tracktion happens to be: To have the most realistic drum sound. It must sound NATURAL, not COOL. (I hope you understand, excuse my English which is not my mother tongue). Please let me try and help you!

My situation: I cannot stand it when I hear a tune, a finished song or a one-man-band production made with so-called "top-quality" sampled instruments and it's so obvious that e.g. the pedal hi-hat (though perfectly sampled) is not a real one, or the kickdrum is not really played by a drummer, or one of the toms just sounds a little weird and not real, or whatever acoustic *detail* may be incorrect. Yes - it's a matter of tiny, tiny, tiny details, but my ears can hear them, and so can other listeners. I found that quite often, it is the hi-hats and other cymbals that spoil the illusion. The hi-hats are quite difficult to make sound like they are "being played", even if they are perfectly sampled as multi-layer sounds, and even if I play with randomizing functions and delay them a little or change tiny details.

The other problem is that when such recordings with sampled drumkits are played at a *low volume*, you can immediately tell that something is not real in there.
So it only sounds good if listened to at a higher volume (louder). There are so many aspects that make it difficult, and the ears of persons who *know* how real drums are sounding, will not be easily fooled for more than a few seconds. And if you think you have a realistic VST drumkit, just use it in a complete mix of a band, then turn down the volume of the band mix, and then listen to your sampled kit, and it will in most cases not sound real anymore. It's really difficult. -- But it *is* possible! Because simply, I have also heard productions with sampled instruments where the drumkit sounded like a REAL one. Not often, but a few times.

And even more: I am convinced it must be possible to use only *ONE* single "virtual drum kit" (the perfect one) and actually use that in a wide variety of styles from Blues to Jazzrock, from punchy Pop to soft Ballads. Because simply, a real drummer in a real band has only one drumkit, but with one and the same kit, he can play a 2-hour concert set, containing all different styles. Yes, I was a band drummer. So why should the same thing be impossible when it comes to sampled instruments? No, there is really no reason. No.

By the way:: I found RMIV quite useless within my own concept, and unneccessarily complex, too. (Not "user-friendly".)

So I have tried many types of drum modules, and each time I *tested* the module with already existing mixes (i.e. complete setups of several tracks with other instruments) to analyze and test if the drums still sound realistic when played *together* with other VST's (or real instruments).
-- And this, I have found, is the biggest problem: A drum module like BFD sounds perfect when played/recorded alone (or together with a bass guitar), but use it in the context of a 5-person band where all frequency ranges are occupied, and the same "perfect" drum module will not sound convincing anymore!! Okay, of course it could be a mistake of the person who does the mixdown/mastering, but I have friends who are professional sound engineers and they could not solve the problem either: As soon as one of these "perfect" drumkits is put into a complete mix, the sound just will not blend in correctly with the other instruments.
I would even say: A perfect virtual drumkit is sounding "too good" for a band mix. Yes! Because the way it was sampled/recorded, it was created to leave a maximum impression when played as a solo instrument.
And I found out that when I use drum samples that are recorded just a little less "clear" and a little less "perfect", these samples can be used much better in a mix, and sound more natural and organic when used in a "virtual band".

However: I feel (and always felt) it must be possible to find the one virtual drumkit that works in such combinations. And that's what I have been trying to find for the past few weeks. I am also still looking for the perfect solution. I worked many hours on this one task, and did very similar work since I started with drum-samplers and recording 20 years ago. And since I know exactly what I WANT and have an extremely determined mind, I will invest whatever it takes to soon have a "real drum kit" in Tracktion! It must be possible to have drums that sound like wood and metal and a guy with hands and feet. Period.

So.. at the moment I am using the following, simple setup and in my tests it worked better (and easier) that all the other solutions I tried. If you want to try out my combination, download/setup the following and then check how it sounds. For my (ex drum-teacher) ears, it sounds convincing and ((almost)) real:

• Download: 'GoldDrums.sf2', a free soundfont. (--this is the most useable, style-flexible, and at the same time real-sounding sounding kit I found until now, and it's better than the "NS7" kit because I need to use it for very different styles but if you are more into Jazz and soft music, also download the NS kit which is the highest quality but not as useable for the more powerful styles like Poprock). Put that soundfont in your Tracktion plugin folder, or in your soundfont folder if you have one.
• Download: 'bs-1', a free soundfont player (available in VST format).
• Put this player, loaded with the drums soundfont, on a new track in Tracktion. Add some EQ-ing (do emphasize the EQ between 1KHz and 10KHz to make the drum sound thicker and give it a bit more power in the midrange frequencies, necessary when used in a band mix - this EQ effect will partly be compensated by the VintageWarmer effect as described further below!).
• If you want, you can also download 'Blockfish' (a compressor that makes the instrument sound more alive) and add a bit of that to the drum track.
• In the stereo mix in Tracktion, insert the plugin 'PSP VintageWarmer' and add some of this effect, because it will make the overall drum sound appear more "open" and a whole lot more alive - this effect is almost *necessary* when the drumkit is used in a complete band mix!
• If you wish, add reverb. Maybe just on the snare drum (which you can put on a separate MIDI track). But careful, never add too much reverb on the drums!!! It really helps a "band mix" if the drums are left rather dry, so you better add effects such as EQ and compressors (Blockfish) and VintageWarmer, but not too much reverb. You can be sure that your perfect virtual drumkit will sound artificial if you add too much reverb. It took me a long time to believe that.
• Here comes the "make this easy for when actually making music" part: Learn how to set up a "rack filter" in Tracktion. So you create a new rack filter, insert into it the soundfont player (loaded with the one drumkit you prefer), then add to the same rack the equalizer with your drumkit settings (must enhance the midrange frequencies if you use your drumkit as part of a complete band while the higher frequencies are added again by the other soundeffects!), then add the compressor (Blockfish) to the same rack filter, the other effects (VintageWarmer!), and the reverb (if any). Now save this whole chain as a "preset rack" called "DRUMS" in Tracktion. Finished. Now you have your perfect drumkit available at all times, always with the same perfect sound! And when creating a new song, you just grab this "preset rack" and put it into the drum track you need for your tune, and you have the perfect drumset for a band mix. That's how I do it now. And the result? I simply can forget about settings and parameters. Yeah
• When the patterns and fills are recorded in the drum track in Tracktion, click on the MIDI clip, and apply the Tracktion function "groove". Set this to "slightly random". This may help a little bit more to make it sound real. Again, you can experiment and use this function not on all drum instruments, but let's say, only on the hi-hats. For this, you would extract the high-hat MIDI notes and put them on a separate drum track in Tracktion, and then apply this function to the separate hi-hat track.
• Oh, and this will make you laugh: To make it sound even more real, I always add a secret "ghost track" to the drum track, and in this special track I record my own hands drumming on my knees! Well, yes, I record my hand-drumming (just drumming along with the recorded track a little, and not too complex) with the vocal microphone. Then, in the final mix I add a little bit of that ghost track (to my drum track that contains the patterns played with GoldDrums). With this funny trick, the whole drumtrack will feel more real because some "real human noise" is added. You cannot really hear this in the final mix because it is only added at a very low volume, but you will *feel* the difference if you listen to the same drum track and it's not in there!
• Or maybe you dance, and record the noise of your dancing feet while playing the MIDI drum tracks! It might also add that magic effect. Only joking about this one

And for the actual MIDI drum patterns, either program them manually, or enter them via keyboard, or via drum pads (which I do), and then afterwards quantize them in Tracktion (but do *not* perfectly quantize the recorded drum pattern, only nearly but not fully).
Or check out BetaMonkey drum loops: http://www.betamonkeymusic.com

I forgot the maybe most important point: It is very, very difficult to make a virtual drumkit sounding like it acoustically *communicates* with the other instruments. For me, music is communication, instruments are made to communicate with each other, and I played in several bands and as a band leader. And many years later, I have worked a lot with sampled drumkits, always trying to make them sound like "being really played". The best you can do is create an illusion. Or use other tricks, such as the one with adding a tiny bit of hand-drumming noise (which does not need to be perfect!) to the finished drum track, this will make it sound more alive.
Still, it will not be possible to make virtual drums "communicate" and "interact" with other players, such as it happens in a Jazzband. Even with innovative software like 'Jamstix' (which is very complex but cool for improvisation + jam sessions like if you have a real drummer playing together with you but not very useable for composed tracks) it is not even comparable. A drumset is the most dynamic instrument so it's very difficult to simulate "real playing" processes that in reality (a drummer playing with a band) take only milliseconds. You can only create an illusion. On the other hand, that's good for the real drummers, so the best of them will have jobs for a few more years

One more thing to check out: ALL the demos and samples and insightful comments on http://kingstondrums.bombsquad.org/about.html

Good luck!

[Barbarossa]

Nice signature, FoxV. I've been meaning to make a signature in reply as well; nice job on yours.

I always wondered why such an offending and stupid signature (the original one) is allowed here.

[Yossarian]

If you want realistic drums and are open to using pre-made beats you might want to take a look at Stylus RMX from www.spectrasonics.net . The on-board sounds and loops may not be what you’re looking for (they have an r&b/hip hop slant) but RMX is expandable both with Spectrasonics’ own expansions (Backbeat and Retro Funk come to mind) and through the Rex file import feature.

RMX has a world of possibilities for working with loops, like the Chaos Designer, on-board FX, the possibility to trigger individual hits within a loop etc. There are some mp3 and video demos at the Spectrasonics website.

/Yoss

[aldi]

@sonicsmurf:
imho bfd (but with the xfl library) is so natural that even real drummers don't recoginze it as samples. maby the fault is, that the engineers haven't used the seperated outputs of it to EQ the instruments (leaving the EQ for Kickdrum flat will never do it in a rock-band )?!
i had to work with it in studios sometimes and when recording a real drumset, i nearly use the same mic-placings and mic-types. so what's the different? it's the room where it was recorded. thats all. and to put some other instruments in the same room, you can use Impulses of the BFD room dropped to any convolution reverb.

only thing might be hihats (as you said) when real complex hihatpatterns are played on them. there an original drumset will sound more natural.

[FoxV]

OT: my sig

Nice signature, FoxV. I've been meaning to make a signature in reply as well; nice job on yours.

Thanks. I just wanted to give platinumears (who I've found to be very generous and helpful) a kindhearted and gentle ribbing. Hope he takes it that way. platinumears? Also, I hoped to provide some support for those--myself included--who are open to the possibility of God, however "crazy" that may seem (and I can understand it seeming quite "crazy").

Peace,
Fox

[FoxV]

I'm liking hearing about these different approaches. I myself was looking at buying a Roland XV 5080 to use it's SRX-01 expansion board (dynamic drums) for drums sound. But now that I've stumbled across sfz and sevearl good soundfonts, I've put off that purchase. I don't need "perfect" drum sounds. But I am a drummer, and I do want something that sounds real. I'm enjoying all the ideas being shared here.

[timmyo]

Nice signature, FoxV. I've been meaning to make a signature in reply as well; nice job on yours.

I always wondered why such an offending and stupid signature (the original one) is allowed here.

Maybe because freedom of non-religious expression is as valid as freedom of religious expression ?

[Barbarossa]

The original stupid quote is postulating, that all people believing in god were mentally sick, which is not only offending the believe in god, but also the people doing so, personally.
Offending others has nothing to do with freedom of personal expression and KVR is IMO not the right place for such non-music related stupid and provoking sigs.

[timmyo]

Opinion noted.

[egross]

I use BFD with tracktion. There are some weird glitches, like fills within a certain midi range not rendering properly to the final mix, although I posted about this awhile back, and no one had the same issue. I'm hoping tracktion 2 might fix it.

I must say though, that BFD is a phenominal program. You can use it on a simple level, or get incredibly complex with mic placement, humanizing, etc. Then setting up a multi-out rack in tracktion to separate out each drum is pretty easy. I love choosing from 7 different drumsets and mixing and matching individual drums. The grooves are helpful too, and there are a ton of them. As a drummer, I can't recommend any software more highly than BFD.

[IIRs]

Thanks. I just wanted to give platinumears (who I've found to be very generous and helpful) a kindhearted and gentle ribbing. Hope he takes it that way. platinumears?

Yeah. raised a little giggle actually.

@ Barbarossa

My sig is a response to those I have seen here promoting religion in one form or another. When this is banned (as I find it extremely offensive) I will happily change my own.

[Barbarossa]

Platinumears,
if someone offends you, then tell the moderators, but please do not offend all others, too.
And i support your opinion, that Raw Material's forum is not the right place for promoting religion.
But it is definately the wrong place to attack all people believing in god personally.

So far i haven't found anyone doing a religious promotion, so i don't know which quote you mean, but it is a fact, that promoting religion does not attack anyone personally.
In contrary your sig is attacking all people believing in god as sick. The promotion of a religion is a promotion, but not a personal attack.