Do expensive cables make a difference?

[hibidy]

Hosts, I get. By why people are so determined to rid the world of the evil that is quality cables is beyond me.

Anyways, see ya!

[bmrzycki]

Hosts, I get. By why people are so determined to rid the world of the evil that is quality cables is beyond me.
Anyways, see ya!

No one is saying to rid the world of quality components. A quality cable to me means it doesn't pop/his/hum when I plug/unplug the connectors over 5+ years. A quality cable is one where the stress boots don't fray or fall off right away. I could care less about voodoo-techno-speak used by charlatans selling $1800/ft lies. There is a real difference between bottom-of-the barrel "the ends mate with my stuff" to a decent $20 6' XLR. Anything costing much over $3/ft starts causing my skept-o-meter to go off.

Digital cables like USB are even easier - if the device works when you plug it in you're done.

[Hink]

Expensive cables won't sound better. If you can hear any difference then just do not expect you're friends to do the same, I mean of course the expensive one will sound better as you paid through the nose for it!

Most expensive I'll go depends on a few things but £20 - £30 max for most cable (obviously a drum/cable snake different but it has to equal about £15 - £20 per cable or its just over priced nonsense) and for that price they have all come with one of those lifetime guarentee things which I've used a few times, Best was when my Dog was a pup and chewed through a planet waves job...They replaced it no questions The £5 job will be just as good sounding but won't have the guarantee which is fine and if its for say my pedal board or something that won't get unplugged often (if at all) then I am all over the cheapest I can get

Its all just audiophile phoolery spilling over into the real world, Don't fall for a word of it my 2 pence FWIW

Best to all as always

Dean

two points Dean...I was just like you in 1999, we sold monster cable and I was the one mocking it at the store. We had monster cable training (which was cool because I won a monster cable power supply thingy with 5000 dollars worth of insurance if anything fried connected to it)...I brought the mixer, the amp, the tape deck, the cables (several different types including the store brand and I set it up. There was indeed a difference between the two and I ate some serious crow...it wasn't huge, but it WAS there on the meters, not by my ears...I dont care who really believes me at all because all my monster cable was bought at less than what most people pay for normal cables because I got a huge discount. I did not pay through the nose for it and I did not believe in the hype then. (another cool thing was monster use to give us 2 dollars bonus for every cable we sold so at the end of the month I got that too)

Which leads me to my second point, all my cables of course are not monster cable but when it comes to those that are I have had to replace them a few times now because of bending the jack. Lifetime warranty means it cost me about 3 dollars in shipping to replace the cables. meanwhile other cables break and I just repair them. I dont have it anymore but the 20' cable I had from when I was a kid turned into a 6' cable after about 20 years

Will expensive cables make a difference? Yes. Will it be worth it? That depends but if you are hell on your cables you might end up saving money with free replacements. BUT make no mistake about it regular steel connectors are not as good as gold plated...better would be copper but they use gold plated because it does not corrode.

With that said though, this is in the newcomers forum and to answer the OP's question...No, they wont make as much as a difference than many other things...things you should put your money toward first. However if you turn the question around and ask "are cheap cables okay?" you will likely discover the answer is no unless you dont mind repairing them (sadly many guitarists can't solder which is like a driver not being able to change a flat tire, which means you might learn some valuable skills by buying crap cables). I have taken apart cables of all types and I have seen many that the solder points were bad news and easily a source for noise, I have seen some that are great. I have had some last days and some that last years.

For instance every guitar comes with one of those 6' cheap cables...would you use it as your guitar cable?


Now my question for others (not you Dean)...why do people have to be rude about this subject and offensive? (it's happened for years here) If you dont want to buy expensive cables then dont...but someone please explain to me how people look better by being rude...how does that help your point...live and let live...none of my post says anyone should buy expensive cables because I dont care what anyone buys or uses...for crying out loud folks, please give it a rest and if you dont like someone then dont use threads like this as a chance to take shots at them...just leave them be. Do it for Ben's sake and the sake of KvR, this place already gets an unfair rep as it is, dont help the haters

edit...one other thing, I think monster has gone over the top with cables that reach into three digits...when I bought mine they were 30 bux or less for everyone else (11 dollars and under for me), I think they are around 40 for that line now...those mega expensive cables are not for me because I can build some cool instruments for the same price.

[hibidy]

Digital cables like USB are even easier - if the device works when you plug it in you're done.

true that

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Fair points John mate and nothing I can disagree with you on at all, I have not done in-depth testing on cables/leads, I am due to buy some new ones soon so I may even give monster a try (I have totally avoided them due to massive off putting claims that I know can not all be remotely close to true, If they just put down the facts then I may have tried their reasonable priced range of cable already no doubt).

Would I use the cable/lead that come free with a guitar purchase or similar when say there is an offer for a free cable when one spends a certain amount or above for example? Nah, I politely but firmly insist on something worth about the same amount or sometimes more instead (Like a cheapish plain black strap and a few sets of strings for example) it has worked so far If you don't ask then you never know just how far a good sales person will go to sort out us customers...I do not take the piss though! Just fair.

Actually I need to re-build my whole board as its changed rather abit and also whilst its in my mind sort out a patch bay but that can wait until my new machine is ready

What out of curiosity was the improvement the monster showed? I have got to know now!!!

Cheers and best to all as always

Dean

[LoserDub]

Back when i played the guitar i purchased some monster cables and i really noticed a big difference in quality compared to standard cables. Buddies were always trying to heist em off me too!

[Hink]

Fair points John mate and nothing I can disagree with you on at all, I have not done in-depth testing on cables/leads, I am due to buy some new ones soon so I may even give monster a try (I have totally avoided them due to massive off putting claims that I know can not all be remotely close to true, If they just put down the facts then I may have tried their reasonable priced range of cable already no doubt).

Would I use the cable/lead that come free with a guitar purchase or similar when say there is an offer for a free cable when one spends a certain amount or above for example? Nah, I politely but firmly insist on something worth about the same amount or sometimes more instead (Like a cheapish plain black strap and a few sets of strings for example) it has worked so far If you don't ask then you never know just how far a good sales person will go to sort out us customers...I do not take the piss though! Just fair.

Actually I need to re-build my whole board as its changed rather abit and also whilst its in my mind sort out a patch bay but that can wait until my new machine is ready

What out of curiosity was the improvement the monster showed? I have got to know now!!!

Cheers and best to all as always

Dean

Dean I'm an old fart, the best I can say is I remember them boasting a 6db difference but I think it was less (we used the needle type vu meters). It wasn't huge at all but one difference I notice (and was mentioned earlier) was the shielding and the cables just did not pick up as much noise or make noise. We were told all about their timewinding process where their claim was low frequencies traveled slower than high frequencies so they developed a method of winding so all the frequencies arrived at the same time...I'm not going to blow smoke up anyone's skirt and say that is a fact. I suppose if I had an engineering degree I could investigate deeper but imo it's probably not so much that the human ear would detect with average cable runs (maybe over 100 feet or something but this guy aint buying a 100' monster cable, I'd rather buy a harley and save a few dollars ).

Honestly I think the biggest difference was that such attention was paid to winding that less shielding issues arose where with cheaper cables you might not get that kind of quality control. In fact I think that's the most honest approach to the difference, better quality control as opposed to some hi-tech super awesome magic. IMO the cables are still overpriced but they are not made as cheaply as other cables, cheap cables may cut costs by stretching out the winding while more expensive cables use more shielding wire because of tighter windings. I think the same can be said for solder joints, I think they invest in more accurate machines that pay for themselves in the first year and then they overcharge you for decades

My philosophy on monster cable now is it's not something I am going to go out and actively seek out to buy but I have bought monster cable since leaving retail. Those instances came when I needed something to bump me over the limit so I could get free shipping. I did this with both an MXR dist + and with my Radial (both times I bought other things too but I dont remember what) and in the end I saved a marginal amount like 10 dollars, but I got cables with a lifetime warranty as well.

Some people will remember I actually had a hard time with monster in maybe 04? I waited and waited for my RA because I didn't have the receipt. When I worked at Mars we just gave the customers new cables but GC wouldn't do that and monster were being jerks about it. I finally ranted enough I got my cables, since I have done it twice (three times soon because I bent another plug) without an issue.

One thing I do have a problem with is people that bring up the lawsuit myth, almost always they mention how they sued Fenway Park (home of the Boston Red Sox baseball team) because Fenway has this huge wall called the green monster and everything they have is "monster" this and "monster" that...yet over all these years I still see monster written all over Fenway. They did sue Disney over Monster Inc but think about it, what is Monster Cable as a company? Monster Inc and that's trademarked, Disney settled. But there are tons of things with monster in the name, in fact just yesterday I bought my daughter a 4-pack of Monster energy drinks so it's a classic example of do not believe everything you read online.

If people only knew, Fender and Gibson are more litigious or just plain dirty than monster is accused of. I worked at one chain that just folded that had many stores and tons of used gear, fender would not allow you to call another companies guitar a strat or tele when they were indeed the same style. They would not allow them to call them strat types or even strat like and they got so bad that daddy's (the store) would fire an employee if they listed it that way more than just a few times. When a salesman took a trade or bought gear it was the saleman's job to enter the info into the computer and the store sent out monthly flyers with all the used gear they had (what was cool was you could have something sent from any store to the store close to you to check out with no obligation). So say you took in a Washburn strat it had to be listed as Washburn 6-string electric S-type.

Monster protects it's trademark...so doesn't every company...but monster is a favorite target because of the snake oil claims

If I were YOU though, I would not buy monster because you can control your own quality and you can buy very good bulk cable...unless of course you get it cheap like I did when I wanted to get that free shipping.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Cheers mate I will probably buy in some cable along with some L shaped and straight Neutrik 1/4 jack plugs and do my own which will save me alot and for not much time as I'll do the lot in one go...and make them to just the right length to keep things tidy (well tidyish as I am not the neatest sort of guy )

Speak soon for a good catch up, Hey?

[aciddose]

i'd just like to mention that i'm getting really sick of people constantly using the phrase "in a double-blind study". this appears to be something used by morons in an attempt attribute some authority to their opinions when they don't actuallyhave a real understanding of the issues they're opinionated about.

it's one thing to show scientifically that it is impossible for any effect to occur. just because people don't notice an effect in a statistically significant number of instances means jack-shit about whether there is an effect or how much of that effect exists.

the actual scientific method, which i seem to have to explain over and over, is that you start with a measurement. for example you plug in your guitar on a 20ft cable and it sounds better than with another 20ft cable.

the next step isn't to ask a bunch of uneducated morons whether or not they agree with you.

the real next step is to come up with a theory about what causes the difference you notice. is it cable capacitance?

after that, you need to experiment. use cables with known capacitance values and try to take into account as many other features (like resistance, inductance) as you can. verify that varying capacitance actually creates the changes you theorized would occur.

now, the next step is the most important of all. next, you need to come up with any possible way you can disprove your theory as the cause of the effect, or disprove that the effect you measured was measured correctly. perhaps the cable you used had a filter circuit built into the jack and you didn't know? perhaps when you did your measurements the signal was influenced by the transmission of music from the ice-cream truck driving down the street outside.

finally, you publish your results and throw your arms up in the air. "well, i can't figure out what i did wrong here. is this actually true? you guys must be able to figure out how i screwed up."

that's science.

when is a "double-blind" study useful? the only time it is useful is when you want to answer very specific questions. those questions are:

- is the effect introduced by the person conducting the measurement? (can only be inferred from results.)
- how is the effect perceived by our subjects?
- what properties of the subjects correlate with an influence of the perception of this effect?

[Hink]

i'd just like to mention that i'm getting really sick of people constantly using the phrase "in a double-blind study". this appears to be something used by morons in an attempt attribute some authority to their opinions when they don't actuallyhave a real understanding of the issues they're opinionated about.

I might not use the word moron but I do agree with your point, but here's what I think is the most important thing that should trump everything else and stop these debates (another being the whole daws sounding better thing). If I say that 1,000 dollar 6" patch cords sound better than anything else and it's all I will use, who cares? Is it really anyone else's place to tell me I'm wrong when what I have is working for me and I'm happy? Even if it is all in my head who cares? My ears happen to be attached to that head and that head controls what I do with my gear so my head is calibrated different than others, if it works for me...who cares? That goes for all of us

[aciddose]

i wouldn't use the word moron either, but i don't know how else to express my rage

i think the reason anybody cares is because it becomes something used as a social leverage. i wouldn't really care about the guy who drives the expensive sports car - but it isn't because it wastes a ridiculous amount of fuel or is uncomfortable and impractical for most of the uses you'd buy a vehicle for in the first place.

the reason that guy has the expensive sports car is to demonstrate that he can. apparently he has the money to buy this car. he likes to pick up bimbos / trophy wives and blow money on them. he doesn't care about how much the extra fuel he burns costs, nor does he care about the fact he uses four times as much as you do and causes four times the pollution. that's because he's better than you.

so it isn't that anybody wants to help poor hibidy so that he's not conned into giving away his money to bestbuy when he spends 200 bucks on a 5 dollar cable.

it's that people hate the fact he says "there is a reason professionals use good cables" while never mentioning his reason. he says that not because it's true, but because it makes him look better. it's an ego thing.

yes there are reasons professionals use good cables. professionals that know what they're doing use a cable that meets the requirements for the task at hand, and one which has good build quality and will last a long time while maintaining it's function.

is that what hibidy meant? i apologize to you hibidy if you did mean that but you really should have spelt it out. the way you said it makes it look like you're just trying to claim you're "professional" and therefore better than anyone who disagrees with you.

so it's a battle of egos really, in that case.

of course i'd be super interested if he did mean something technical. i'm very aware of high-frequency slew issues on lengthy cables and a ton of ways to deal with the problem. i know all about the effects on long stretches of high voltage high current cables. i know this can be a huge deal with microphones, guitars and in modular synthesizers.

there are valid reasons and invalid reasons for taking such a position.

what makes me really mad though is the fact people are bickering back and forth trying to pad out their egos rather than sticking to just the facts and technicals. if i wanted to use a forum to talk about who's the best i'd go post on some highschool girl's facebook page.

[hibidy]

ridiculous.

[aciddose]

why are you side-stepping? why not just say "yeah i mean because when i'm on stage with a 25ft cable my humbucker rings a lot better using cable X vs. cable Y, and i don't want to just use a buffer and cable Y because while i can get a similar effect with eq, it just doesn't have the same flair anymore."

even though that would be super ridiculous, then it would just be reduced to what hink said about who cares. if it sounds better to you in this particular situation, that's great!

what you said though was that "professionals" use specific cables for "a reason" which could mean any number of things.

purpose of the thread is to help educate the OP, not to try to stuff a bunch of monster cable cabbage in his head.

[hibidy]

You are ridiculous. I don't care what the reason is anymore, muted and that's how it will stay.

[aciddose]

you're just mad that you never thought of using a $20 nfet buffer to save from having to buy a high spec cable

actually: advice for any guitar players - all you need is a single fet which is worth about 5 cents, a battery, a switched socket.



you can actually use two of these - one directly from the pickup into the volume/tone, and one output from the volume to the cable.

if you use a switched socket you can only connect the battery's + to the buffers when a cable is plugged in. you might also want to load the pickups or tone circuit by a fixed amount, whatever sounds best to you.

then the cable won't make any difference anymore. it'll be 100% transparent.

you can put a capacitor on the input of the buffer to "load" the circuit inside the guitar to pick and choose exactly how you want the guitar to sound, whatever you prefer.

this is the intelligent way to deal with this issue.

oh - you only have to know one caveat. an npn transistor has a postive VBE usually of about 0.7 volts. so it doesn't start to conduct much until it reaches that level. the result of that is anything at the output will be -0.7 volts from the input and if the lowest value is 0.0, it means the bottom of your waveform below 0.7 all gets clipped off!

with a njfet however there is a huge negative gate bias. usually it's about -8 or -5 or something like that. so what that means is anything on the output will be +5 or +8 from the input - which is perfect! it means the entire signal will pass because the output of most pickups isn't going to go below -5 or -8.

so the only thing you need to know is this: that voltage is variable. it depends on the type of fet, and not only that but the specific fet! so you have to select the right kind for this circuit to work.

also the 4.7k resistor and 10u capacitor. the capacitor blocks that extra voltage that is added by the fet to center things again. you don't want to be sending dc down your cable because that'll have other effects.

the 4.7k resistor can be a wide range of values. it could be 100k, 10k, 1k, 100 ohms, whatever. the lower it is, the faster the battery will discharge but the more current the buffer will be able to pass down the cable. if you have a high-z input on your amp you probably want to make the resistor 1/10th of the amp's input. so if it's 1meg, 100k would be fine and 10k might be a little over-kill and drain your battery way too fast.

if you have a low-z amp you'll want to match that by loading the input of the buffer by the same amount. so if the amp has a 50k input, you need to put a 50k resistor from the buffer's input to the ground to emulate the effect. you'll also want to put a capacitor there to match your favorite cable, probably 200pf or so.

you'd also want to use about 5k for the output resistor and use a much bigger capacitor, which can be problematic.

you have to be technical, you have to understand what's going on and how to use the right cable/buffer/components for the task at hand.

going the cable route is paying an ignorance fee. assuming it even works