Proper Gain Structure & dbfs?

[MyKill]

We're talking about the levels you're seeing on the master bus here though, as they're output from a channel and placed on the bus, before they're into the master channel and it's input gain.

Why do you care at all what the level is at this point? You'd have to take into account where the signal is headed such as the master channel. Otherwise the level at this point is completely meaningless.

But I'm NOT talking about the Bus Signal!! I'm talking about the CHANNEL LEVEL. That is where the confusion is coming from I guess. I'm talking about STEP 1, Leveling the Channel. In this case, I'm talking about the amount of signal I'm sending into insert 1 on the SNARE CHANNEL. Your daw adds +3 dB for hard pans. Mine subtracts 3 from the center. If I had a 0dB Pan law, that snare would read -2 dBFS on the channel and on the Master Bus. no matter where I panned it.

If I instate the -3 dB pan law in the project settings, IF I'm viewing "Inserts" or "Post Fader", the snare, panned CENTER would read -2 on the channel, and -2 if I hard Panned.

If I view the mixer POST PANNER, the CENTER Panned Snare would read -5, if I hard panned it would read -2 again. I get all that. I'm not asking about Pan Law.

My emulations expect a certain level as I have been led to believe. So if I'm trying to get my snare to peak at -9 dBFS on the CHANNEL and I want to slap a old compressor emulation on that CHANNELS insert, do I view the mixer as Pre-PANNER, and "level" the signal to where my channel will read -9 and that is the level being sent to the insert compressor

OR

view the mixer as Post PANNER, "level" the signal to -9, which would mean that the snare is actually being sent as -6 through the compressors...

Some panners output -3db at center position as you're complaining about

Im not "complaining" about anything. There is nothing to "complain" about. I'm trying to figure out what level to send my emulations!!!!

[aciddose]

I'm not confused by any of this. If you want the level between the inserts to be -9db, set it there.

What is the issue with what the meter says?

What I am confused about is what possible justification there is that your plugins would use a reference other than 0db.

That though doesn't matter, what matters is what level you want to send to them, not what they expect. They don't have a say in this. They have no souls.

[MyKill]

I'm not confused by any of this. If you want the level between the inserts to be -9db, set it there.

What is the issue with what the meter says?

What I am confused about is what possible justification there is that your plugins would use a reference other than 0db.

That though doesn't matter, what matters is what level you want to send to them, not what they expect. They don't have a say in this.

Because, as you know, the internet is full of opinions and bullshit. While researching this topic, I kept coming across the idea that 0VU is the emulation reference signal, and ALSO you should not send transient heavy material (a Snare on this case) to an emulation any higher than -9 dBFS. Maybe that is not correct. I dont know...thats why I'm HERE!

So if my emulation needs lower than -9, and my Channel should be leveled at -9, the Pre-Post Panner View option becomes a little more relevant, since a -9, mono center panned snare viewed Post Panner would actually be sending a -6 level through the emulations...

that was the whole point of this... do I need to "level" my signals in Pre-Panner view if using a Pan Law that affects channel level readings

[MyKill]

First, thank you for turning me on the the Satson. I love it's saturation sound. Respect.

You can also use Sonalksis's FreeG:
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia ... reeG.shtml

Has a great meter.

Thanks!

[aciddose]

I still don't get what you're going on and on about.

If you set the input gain to -9db, you GET -9db. It doesn't matter what the meter says.

Are you complaining that the meter says something different, or that the input gain adjustment doesn't tell you what it's set to, or that you're trying to adjust the level by using the channel's meter?

You've just finished explaining that you know all the factors at play though, so what is the problem exactly?

You can't both know all the factors and not know the answer to a question, these are mutually exclusive.

If you know the panner messes with the level, make the required adjustments.

Seriously.

[MyKill]

I still don't get what you're going on and on about.

Are you complaining that the meter says something different, or that the input gain adjustment doesn't tell you what it's set to, or that you're trying to adjust the level by using the channel's meter?

You've just finished explaining that you know all the factors at play though, so what is the problem exactly?

You can't both know all the factors and not know the answer to a question, these are mutually exclusive.


Seriously.

Seriously.
You dont know what I'm going on and on about.
You never got the concept of what I was asking. You think you did, and gave me an ton of great and helpful info, but not what i was specifically asking.
And no, I don't mind looking stupid to people I've never met, going "on and on" asking until I figure it out, internet status be damned.


And again, I haven't "complained" once. I have been asking questions.

Perhaps you are on the level that i have not yet reached

I never concern myself with such things because they occur to me naturally and intuitively. I've already learned how to deal with these situations and all the factors at play.

Well, I'm not there yet, friend. I do have to concern myself with "such things" because it isn't "natural" or "intuitive" quite yet. I'm working on it.

So perhaps you're giving a algebra answer while I'm asking a basic math question. Maybe you know so much you can't fathom the knuckle-dragging question I'm trying to ask. Maybe I used the wrong words in my question. Either way, you don't get what I'm saying and now you're getting aggravated because you think I'm an idiot. So lets just move on...

So I stopped asking questions and ran to tests in my DAW to try to figure it out, and it seems I was trying to ask 2 different questions in one. I will post the graphed results for any other anal retentive knuckle draggers who may want to know what I discovered about Cubase meter view options. I figured out everything I was trying to ask except:


If the generally accepted idea that hardware emulation plugins (such as the Native Instruments Vintage Compressors) should be sent a ~ 0VU signal for sources (such as a bass) since the emulation itself was probably calibrated with a 0VU = -18dBFS signal,
is there a recommended/best-practice level in dBFS to aim for with transient heavy material such as snares?

[MyKill]

PS

I'm not confused by any of this. ... What I am confused about is

[aciddose]

Is that honestly your question? You've been repeating over and over that you've already decided you wanted to use 9db and several posts have told you that no, there is no standard level for "a snare". There are so many possible definitions of "a snare" that it would be foolish at best to generalize.

Again, you need to look at specifically what you're trying to accomplish here.

What are you trying to accomplish? You've said you're trying to pass a signal into a plugin which you've decided needs a specific level. I'm still not clear on whether you're satisfied by some particular level or not.

If I were you I'd go with peak levels and follow whatever the documentation for the plugin recommends.

So that's one "question" answered.

The other was based upon some rambling about meters and panners and levels where you know all the factors involved but for some reason can't connect the dots. Neither can I or anyone else because it's unclear what the issue is.

[aciddose]

PS

I'm not confused by any of this. ... What I am confused about is

Yes, ha ha, I said I'm not confused by the issue you claimed was confusing me, then I admitted to being confused by a completely separate issue.

Not sure why this is funny, though.

Do you understand the justification for using a level other than 0db as a reference? Especially in floating point, just what could the justification be, honestly?

[MyKill]

You've been repeating over and over that you've already decided you wanted to use 9db and several posts have told you that no, there is no standard level for "a snare". There are so many possible definitions of "a snare" that it would be foolish at best to generalize.

You've said you're trying to pass a signal into a plugin which you've decided needs a specific level. I'm still not clear on whether you're satisfied by some particular level or not.

The other was based upon some rambling about meters and panners and levels where you know all the factors involved but for some reason can't connect the dots. Neither can I or anyone else because it's unclear what the issue is.

Can we just stop? Please? When you throw things in like "it would be foolish at best to generalize" & "The other was based upon some rambling " you're obviously trying to be antagonistic (Google it), and I really don't want to get in an "internet sarcastic comment showdown".

It was 2 questions, already admitted, badly worded. Is there recommended transient levels for emulations, then, if so, do I set it Pre-Panner. I know you said there was no specific level for transients, but I figured there were more opinions on the internet than just yours.
I'm dumb, you win. Are we finished?


Asking for pointers from anyone with experience using them in different scenarios and/or if there is a general consensus

[Compyfox]

Let's cut this short.

Really, the question is: DOES IT MATTER WHICH WAY I DO IT?

I actually do not think about the setup of my mixing console either, or how everything works in relation.

My Cubase MixConsole meter setup is at Post Pan/Post Fader (most hardware is locked to that as well!). And I only worry about the correct signal strength once while leveling it in.


So to cut your questions short:

Your technical dillema. With the pan rule, the "signal" would actually be shifted down by -3dB. So if you level in at -9dBFS peak pre fader, the signal should in theory be at -12dBFS peak post fader.

But why insist that this is wrong? It's only mathematics and specific setups of a meter. Just leave it at the default settings (post pan/post fader), use a VU as first insert, level in, be happy.



You are really overcomplicating things. It's good to know the ins and outs of a certain device or "tool" so to speak. But you just want to work, and not constantly think about "am I doing this right?! Am I really doing this right? I mean... 0,5dB shift, this is wrong, so very wrong".

Stop that instantly! Doesn't help you, only confuse you even more.


The more options we got with digital tools, the more confusion was introduced. Leave Cubase at default: post pan/post fader, use your VU/RMS meter as first insert, faders at unity. Level in the signal to your desired specs, then ignore the VU/RMS meter(!) and mix to your hearts content.


There are no additional rules, there is no need to overcomplicate things, there is no reasons to think if your pan rule is correct or not (as I was mentioning, I use -4,5dB as rule). Just mix.

And if the mix feels right to you, the mix is right. It's that simple.



Everything else is just to have a consistent level from module to module. And even then, I don't think about pan rules. I just take a look at the meters. And if the meter tells me "dude, you're at -3dBFS per channel, that is way too hot", then I turn down the fader and continue working.

[MyKill]

...But why insist that this is wrong? It's only mathematics and specific setups of a meter. Just leave it at the default settings (post pan/post fader), use a VU as first insert, level in, be happy.

I don't get why everyone thinks I am saying the readings are "wrong". As much as I hate this saying, "It is what it is". It gives the reading it was designed to give. That doesn't make anything wrong to me. I had 2 simple questions, I just worded it as one really unclear, hard to understand question. My fault . But you answered one of them. "Leave it at the default setting (post pan/post fader)". Thats what I was looking for. Got any opinion/experience on best transient peak levels sent to emulations?

I ran my meter tests late last night and now I'm fixing to head to work, so after work I'll try to post the screenshots for anyone else interested/inexperienced with the Cubase meter view options.

[jupiter8]

There are 2 answers to your questions and i gave you the first one already. The second one you made clear in your original post that you don't want to hear so i'll leave it at that.

[Compyfox]

Got any opinion/experience on best transient peak levels sent to emulations?

Again, if the internal reference level is at -18dBFS sine @ 1kHz (= -18dB RMS), then digital peaks can go up until -9dBFS or even -6dBFS easily. Depending on the incoming signal.

There is no set rule other than:
a) the one you make yourself
b) the limitations of the system (read: PPM's for example, remember the -9dB I wrote about earlier?)

[MyKill]

The second one you made clear in your original post that you don't want to hear so i'll leave it at that.

Nice play, sir! I'm not being facetious,I don't mind a dose of my own medicine as long as it's well done

digital peaks can go up until -9dBFS or even -6dBFS easily. Depending on the incoming signal.

Thank you. Perhaps you did cover that already but I was busy freaking out over RMS levels.

I can't think of anything else to ask here without wanting to hang myself.