Is music just an elaborate arpeggio?

[jancivil]

no, theres plenty of good music i dont like.

This is exactly it; when the argument to taste comes in, or the argument it's none but subjective.
There is what I consider absolutely great music I don't actually enjoy most, or even _any_ of the time.

There is music heard around here and in like naborhoods which is literally infantile as far as its tunes go.
There is music that has next-to-no content in it and the tiny bits are repeated over and over with no hope. It doesn't matter if the creator of it is 4 or 60. This is nothing to do with 'correctness', that's a garbage term here anyway. I do all kind of things in music somebody is going to call incorrect; correct, whatever that is taken to be is no guarantee there's anything at all to care about, anyway.

At any rate, at least I'm not being cynical and doing as little as possible knowing somebody is going to buy it because the stupidity of a certain type of person is guaranteed in the world.

There are reasons to care about quality.

[Ou_Tis]

Nor does all that fallacy change the fact of shitty music or garbage tunes for any time.

I firmly believe there is no such thing as "shitting music"

Perhaps that's when you scream on the toilet while blasting bluegrass music to help push the shit out... though that's my father's music. He really believes in it.

As mentioned in The Music Instinct, a lot of late 20th century popular music focuses more on rhythm, timbre, and energy. So having great melodies may not matter as much---they might even distract from the more "important" aspects, or if the music wants to embody raw, unpolished or anarchic energy, an obviously artful or coherent melody might detract....

I am gonna guess you never heard of new grass revival.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbkiI5nX3zc

It's the addition of his screams that really makes it his own subgenre---like bluegrass with black metal vocals. And gas escaping, and (hopefully) poop plopping and flushing. (Can agonized shitting also be a form of dance? Spin the shit down the drain, bob your head and tears....) I do still enjoy bluegrass... shitting music isn't necessarily shit music.

[telecode]

There is music that has next-to-no content in it and the tiny bits are repeated over and over with no hope. It doesn't matter if the creator of it is 4 or 60. This is nothing to do with 'correctness', that's a

Oh.. well, that's a different argument all together. There are pro's that are good at what they do and there are shmos' that are not good at what they are doing. Buying consumer products like computer music software and instruments does not automatically make one a pro. I firmly believe time and effort put in highly influences the end result.

[telecode]

Nor does all that fallacy change the fact of shitty music or garbage tunes for any time.

I firmly believe there is no such thing as "shitting music"

Perhaps that's when you scream on the toilet while blasting bluegrass music to help push the shit out... though that's my father's music. He really believes in it.

As mentioned in The Music Instinct, a lot of late 20th century popular music focuses more on rhythm, timbre, and energy. So having great melodies may not matter as much---they might even distract from the more "important" aspects, or if the music wants to embody raw, unpolished or anarchic energy, an obviously artful or coherent melody might detract....

I am gonna guess you never heard of new grass revival.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbkiI5nX3zc

It's the addition of his screams that really makes it his own subgenre---like bluegrass with black metal vocals. And gas escaping, and (hopefully) poop plopping and flushing. (Can agonized shitting also be a form of dance? Spin the shit down the drain, bob your head and tears....) I do still enjoy bluegrass... shitting music isn't necessarily shit music.

Thats quite a ramble. I am lost as to are you talking about the genre itself or this particular clip. Bela Fleck is/was a famous banjo virtuoso and went on to make a number of jazz fusion records after leaving NGR. NGR the band were also not pure bluegrass -- they mixed a few different genres -- but the main take away is they were virtuosos on their instruments and showed that its a genre that could complete in modern times.

The main thing to take away from bluegrass is that it's not music meant for top charts or dance clubs. Its music closely tied to rural white American culture.

[Protocol_b]

if you are navigating a scale, you are in effect creating arpeggios

No, because there is an actual definition of the word: an arpeggio is <a broken chord>. A *chord* broken up to be sounding its parts one at a time.

You'd have to stretch the definition of *chord* out of all usefulness to make 'scale' and 'chord' into this single term.

You MIGHT have a seven note object in the vertical, but it could be simply a pandiatonic blur, and all other samplings of this fabric indistinct from one another. It MIGHT be a chord, but we have to have more than that; and you aren't even here yet with that notion.

Point to team Jancivil! YES - I am stretching the definition of a chord, guilty as charged. I'm stretchy like that.

[vurt]

bendy too?
with real gripping hands?

[Ou_Tis]

Nor does all that fallacy change the fact of shitty music or garbage tunes for any time.

I firmly believe there is no such thing as "shitting music"

Perhaps that's when you scream on the toilet while blasting bluegrass music to help push the shit out... though that's my father's music. He really believes in it.

As mentioned in The Music Instinct, a lot of late 20th century popular music focuses more on rhythm, timbre, and energy. So having great melodies may not matter as much---they might even distract from the more "important" aspects, or if the music wants to embody raw, unpolished or anarchic energy, an obviously artful or coherent melody might detract....

I am gonna guess you never heard of new grass revival.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbkiI5nX3zc

It's the addition of his screams that really makes it his own subgenre---like bluegrass with black metal vocals. And gas escaping, and (hopefully) poop plopping and flushing. (Can agonized shitting also be a form of dance? Spin the shit down the drain, bob your head and tears....) I do still enjoy bluegrass... shitting music isn't necessarily shit music.

Thats quite a ramble. I am lost as to are you talking about the genre itself or this particular clip. Bela Fleck is/was a famous banjo virtuoso and went on to make a number of jazz fusion records after leaving NGR. NGR the band were also not pure bluegrass -- they mixed a few different genres -- but the main take away is they were virtuosos on their instruments and showed that its a genre that could complete in modern times.

The main thing to take away from bluegrass is that it's not music meant for top charts or dance clubs. Its music closely tied to rural white American culture.

You're missing the point. My father screams to bluegrass to help him shit. Therefore his (my father's) screaming + bluegrass is literally "shitting music". It's (mostly) a joke... don't think it says much of anything about bluegrass.

But it's worth bearing in mind that music can have different functions---not just social, but physiological. For example, a simple and repetitive melody might seem like "shit", but it could be useful in inducing a trance-like state.

[jancivil]

I hear utter shit with poor excuses for melody every day practically. By people that didn't do their due diligence and learn music.

That's just your age talking. It is irrelevant to modern listeners and modern musicians.

You have no idea whatsoever what my thought is there, other than what I stated.

Or, you want to argue that doing your due diligence and learning music (as broadly stated as that is) is passe now because of 'modern' blah blah. Vacuous, that would surely be.
I presented some new, very young music in this thread as an example of linear vs chord boxes, but no, you have to prop me up like that. You're intellectually dishonest, and there is a point where that is going to limit your intellectual growth. It may be too late to take your head out your ass. That's not really anything like an idea, note well, it's just some attitude.

You don't seem willing to engage in actual conversation, you just go with your first impulse, make up a straw.man which assists you in kidding yourself you have some point to make, abusing what the other has said in service of that; pure bullshit. So with zero conversation available, it's time for the mute button.

[jancivil]

But it's worth bearing in mind that music can have different functions---not just social, but physiological. For example, a simple and repetitive melody might seem like "shit", but it could be useful in inducing a trance-like state.

By itself? Which melody? The things I'm on about definitely just sit there being shitty.

Moroccan trance I have a passing familiarity with. I suppose there is this electronic genre we call tarnce around here but I think you need quite some drugs for that to actually happen.

[jancivil]

That reminds of something which happened in another thread, "someone is really triggered by some music which doesn't even pretend to be art".
I don't know when simple vs complex was mentioned, other than I know I didn't and have already gone into that here recently enough.

There is in any form of communication such a thing as poorly vs well-formed. Right now there is this music right above me which is supposed to be something it doesn't live up to because the degree of repetition means someone isn't having fully formed ideas.

There is such a thing now as fake music. People don't need to know anything at all to "produce" it. I put scare quotes around that word because it's not substantially different than saying making a mix tape is producing music. It's not even producing in the quality having a shit is. It's just re-ordering something already made; cf., a pre-fabricated house isn't going to come from the same goal as really building the thing and attention to more, and the quality control etc.

You can put someone in a trance by meandering conversational speech, saying less and less (hypnotists know specific techniques) 'content-wise', so if that's a goal, it may not be a musical goal so much (in which case, why not argue that you can't apply musical form or content QC criteria). OTOH, Moroccan trance music is supposed to do that and elevate your consciousness, and interestingly enough it's not just the repetition that's of interest, it can't be just anything.

[Stamped Records]

There definitely exists such music that is minimal and hypnotic, although, heard from a different perspective, it could just sound empty, static and repetitive. Even typical house beat is hypnotic to a certain extent. One also needs to remember that a lot of the evolution in electronic music is programmed into the sound itself as opposed to the music.

E.G.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ytN8LBkumM

[telecode]

There definitely exists such music that is minimal and hypnotic, although, heard from a different perspective, it could just sound empty, static and repetitive. Even typical house beat is hypnotic to a certain extent. One also needs to remember that a lot of the evolution in electronic music is programmed into the sound itself as opposed to the music.

Totally agree with this. Its all depends what the purpose of the music is for. House is a great example. The various Chillstep and Drum & Bass genres are also an example. I see it all as a natural evolution of electronic music for new generations of listeners. An evolution of Buddha Bar type music -- just made with computers and more electronic instruments. It's all good stuff. I am a huge fan of the bitbird label and their roster of artists.

[jancivil]

The main thing about this statement "It is irrelevant to modern listeners and modern musicians."
is the only "it" reacted to was the quality control or lack thereof regarding "melody" and "due diligence" as to musicianship, ie., normative values in place vis a vis creation of a music.

"modern listeners and modern musicians" has no meaning as a blanket statement. Your remarks are devoid of meaning.
Which people are we supposed to have a picture of reading this?

Certainly you don't want this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzFAR6aN20g

Tigran is a composer steeped in tradition - more than one, eg., the old school of vocal polyphony (Palestrina et al), jazz, Armenian folk musics - yet modern enough I think. He's 31. How old is drummer Hnatek? I'll look. 27.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swj-NQKkrRE


Pontificating on relevance like this is passing silly. One supposes since you couldn't be happy with your opp during the life of the "Producahz" thread you think you have something to say about 'modern producers'. Is that relevant?
Evidently you needed <fuddy duddy old person clinging to the past> as an excuse to post that drivel, but I would venture a strong supposition that the probability of you grasping my vocabulary of 35 yrs ago looks to be vanishing.

[telecode]

The main thing about this statement "It is irrelevant to modern listeners and modern musicians."
is the only "it" reacted to was the quality control or lack thereof regarding "melody" and "due diligence" as to musicianship, ie., normative values in place vis a vis creation of a music.

"modern listeners and modern musicians" has no meaning as a blanket statement. Your remarks are devoid of meaning.
Which people are we supposed to have a picture of reading this?

Certainly you don't want this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzFAR6aN20g

Tigran is a composer steeped in tradition - more than one, eg., the old school of vocal polyphony (Palestrina et al), jazz, Armenian folk musics - yet modern enough I think. He's 31. How old is drummer Hnatek? I'll look. 27.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swj-NQKkrRE


Pontificating on relevance like this is passing silly. One supposes since you couldn't be happy with your opp during the life of the "Producahz" thread you think you have something to say about 'modern producers'. Is that relevant?
Evidently you needed <fuddy duddy old person clinging to the past> as an excuse to post that drivel, but I would venture a strong supposition that the probability of you grasping my vocabulary of 35 yrs ago looks to be vanishing.

Good clips, good music and great musicians. I think the mis-communication on my part is what do I exactly mean by "modern" and "modernity" and a "modern listener". I am using the word "modern" as a very broad generalization and blanket statement covering the largest popular musical genres and trends currently going on in music to which a target demographic is a young demographic of 12 to maybe 25 year olds. It's a very unfair and incorrect way to use the term, but its the only think I could think of at the time. I am referring to the "most popular of the popular".

The clips you provide is great music and great musicianship and that has and always will be around but it will always be a niche market that attracts a niche listener. For example, John McLaughlin and the Mahavishnu Orchestra ..I love their records in the 70s .. but they were a niche genre. Modern listeners and modernity within the context of the 70s is an era define by Fleetwood Mac, The Eagles, Disco, e.t.c. not by jazz fusion. I love the music of Montreal's GodSpeed You Black Emperor.. and even though that are quite popular with the audience tho is into that genre of music, they too are a niche music market. You can find comparables in the 80s, 90s, 00s. That's what I mean.

Modernity in the present is defined by Drake, Hasley, DJ Khalid e.t.c. I am assuming a lot of new producers and song writers trying to break through are going after and targeting that segment. I am not saying, all and everyone trying to break through should just be targeting that segment. Not at all. If you have a passion for dark alternative and want to contribute to the evolution of Bauhaus, Peter Murphy, Sisters of Mercy and NIN, by all means go for it and I would be thrilled if you modernized it, and found a way to revive it and make it a modern relevant genre of rock music. Thats all I am saying.

[jancivil]

Anyway, say whatever, if you can't be arsed to know what you even want to say any better than that, I have zero time moving forward, you are the reason for a block function afaic. What we have here is a failure to communicate.

IE: I really can't care less what that was supposed to mean if it was supposed to mean anything. "Modern" in terms of a musical vocabulary doesn't follow just because of the date being more current. That is easily shown/seen by any person with a grasp of history. So who knows/who cares what that shit is.

EG: this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9p7l_GdetA

has a patch, this sort of reverse envelope vocal sample, which couldn't have existed for a performance in the way it does here, unless one was operating a tape machine and probably no, the facility exists only recently. IE: one could have done with tape long, long ago. There are things one can achieve in say time-stretching that are novel effects, there are new techniques in sound creation without a doubt. I don't know what that clicking in a DAW as preferable to getting more interested was supposed to do but I cease to wonder about the stupid as a matter of course.

Musically, if there is a more-modern thing today what it really is is a recombining of extant things. That band does sound fresh in its blend of influences, but we should note how much of it is the Moog, and is the Persian vocal influence. Nobody is reinventing the wheel; the interest, the talent is in the composition and the arrangement, performed.

(there is no one surpassing Ligeti of the 1960s just out of we have a modern DAW today, seriously)

Tigran Hamasyan does a fusion of Church Polyphony, Armenia folk and sacred, jazz, Indian rhythm, math rock... started off as a jazz prodigy.

I have my ears wide open to possibilities and I actually listen to younger people for influence as much as anything else. I'm interested.