Need help choosing between Drumcore and BFD for use in T

[sonicsmurf]

Hi friends!
Oh, I found something interesting for you guys that are on the lookout for the one perfect drumset. If you are really interested in the matter, you can read *the user reviews* on all the acoustic drumkits [[here]] (read the reviews, download the drumkits you find interesting, make a quick test to see whether they work in your music/mixes). Or just read the reviews in that website and you will, like me, learn a few things about the topic we are discussing.

Yes, I have just read through all these reviews on the acoustic kits. As an expert in drums I agree on most of these reviews, though not all details. Very interesting opinions! And it seems that a lot has already been done, by several people who have the exact same concept...

Then I downloaded the kits that seemed worth a check. And am now testing them in various styles and with existing mixes and MIDI files of complete songs (and even a live-recorded drum solo which is really a tough test), to find the best (most convincing sounding) drumkits.
Some of them sound perfect, yes, but when they sit in a mix with other instruments they have "no soul". The drums sound dead.

But other drumsets make a song very alive and interesting, they sound like it matters what they are playing.

- I have to admit that in my current productions I went back to the "NS7" drumkit from Natural Studio (ah well, it does seem to have the highest quality), and I swapped the cymbals for those from the "Ruffrider" kit. This is the status here, and at the moment seems to be the best of all worlds. But things still change. One thing is for sure: I will also make "my own" favourite combination (just a version for myself), and that will be the one drumkit I will use in most productions.

Other musicians have done exactly the same... you will realize that when you read the reviews (see the link above).
Maybe there will be one drumkit out of the 20 I downloaded from that site, that I will also add to the "best of acoustic drumkits" soundfont.. I am still testing with various styles (from Dire Straits covers to Rock and RnB and even some Jazz tunes)

And maybe, if you find one drukmit at the above mentioned link, that you like even better than the NS7, Ruffrider, GoldDrums or whatever you found the best useable until now, please let me know this, so I will integrate that kit into my "best of" soundfont which you can test later and see if you can use it.

BTW if you are looking for a very realistic bass guitar soundfont that can be used very well in all kinds of tunes, check out the soundfont "Naturally Decaying B-Guitars" at the same website (and also read its reviews from musicians). It's an oustanding bass guitar sound that works really well in all kinds of styles!

Back to work now, I have to finish that soundfont!

[sonicsmurf]

Update... I tested all the acoustic drumkits from that website, but in the end I only kept one of the more than 20 kits. Only one worked in many styles *and* sounded interesting for a longer period of time. So as of now, here's my current rank list of the best 5 free realistic drumkits:

1.) "RealAcousticDrums_3" (by Guido Scognamiglio Download) <<<<< check this one out it's great!
(If you don't have a utility to de-compress "sfark" files, download sfark.exe from http://www.melodymachine.com/sfark.htm)
This drumkit is an extremely small file: 1MB (compare that to the 200MB of NS7 and the 9GB of Drumcore).
Good: Superb overall sound. Great usability in many types of styles!! I even tested this with some Jazzrock tunes and with some EQ-ing was able to make the fat and hyper-punchy sound of Billy Cobham (the famous fusion drummer whom I actually used to help build up his real drumkit but that's another story ) This soundfont even has a full percussion section with congas and small percussion instruments (nicely panned so you can actually use them). And the best: This kit has extremely good and powerful toms that are perfectly panned. All in all, if you throw this kit on the drum track inside a finished mix, it will in most cases work, sound natural, and sound great.
Bad: The rimshot is not convincing and does not sound like anything is being "hit", so it must be replaced in case it's used in a tune.

2.) "ns_kit 7" (by Douglas Whates Download)
Best recording quality, extremely large file: 200MB.
Good: Great snare drum. Very natural overall sound.
Bad: The sound of the toms appears thin and like plastic, and the toms are not panned wide enough. And there are some little crackling noises in some samples. And the general panning is not really good, the kit's panorama is very narrow (especially if you compare with RealAcousticDrums_3 which sounds WAY MORE impressive but still natural). This kit sounds a bit boring after a while. That's not really bad (depending on the style) and drums should just sit there in the mix without becoming too dominant, but I noticed this kit sounds very, very clean (to add a little dirt or effects may not hurt).

Audio Demos: http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/demos/nskit7/

-- I actually listen to all these kits for many hours a day, while I am working: What I did now was to download some absolutely huge MIDI files containing "best of" compilations of all kinds of Eighties and RnB and Rock tunes, then I replaced the bass and keys tracks with highly realistic sampled instruments and finally I put one of the drumkits in the drum track and switch between the kits - for hours. Because only with this method I can test how a drumkit works during a whole set of 30 different songs and in all kinds of styles! Yep, that's an extreme approach but only this way I can find out what works best. If a part of a drumkit (e.g. the closed hi-hat) starts to sound awful after Tracktion went through five very different songs, I make a note for that kit and know that I'll really have to replace the closed hi-hat with a better one. So this is what I am doing these days (next to working for my clients

3.) "GoldDrums" (by Guido Scognamiglio Download)
13MB size.
Good: Well-balanced and neutral overall sound. The snaredrum sounds very "woody" and real.
Bad: You can only use this kit in a mix after applying EQ to give it more treble. And this kit sounds a bit boring after a while. Good and nice and real, but boring.

4.) "Easyrider" and "Ruffrider" (by Michael Kingston Download)
File size depends on how you put it together (anything between 20MB and 100MB).
Good: The best crash cymbals and ride cymbals. An interesting, unprocessed sound that gives any tune a lot of character and attitude. The closed hi-hats are great, and actually can make a tune sound like a human drummer is giving the tune a lot of "drive" (something not observed when using other kits). The rimshot is great, especially for Reggae. Both drumkits are great for Rock and any of the old school styles.
Bad: The soundfonts are way too loud. There is no panning. The open hi-hat is too grungy and should be replaced. And a problem, if you only have a simple soundfont player, you have to assemble all the components before you can use the drumkits. So this needs work to make it simple to use.

Oh, and here are some more opinions by other musicians. So it's clear that many people around the world and in many forums have the exact same needs: They want one good virtual drumkit that sounds real and is easy to use.

If you find better kits please let me know! I am working on a soundfont with the best kits (all-in-one)

[rockstar_not]

sonicsmurf,

I thought about printing out your tips here, because they are so detailed.

Then I realized, that in reality, I'm just begging for the day that T actually supports loops with a usable time stretch option - so I can finally and easily use the BetaMonkey loops discs that I have!!!

But thanks for the tips.

I really like the hand slapping on the knees tip. That makes sense, even though the levels are quite low, I can see where the hints of human arms moving and clothing sound and so forth might add just enough realism to a pre-recorded loop or midi drum pattern to satisfy me.

-Scott

[sonicsmurf]

Hey Scott, nice to meet you

Ah well, BetaMonkey. And BFD. And Drumcore. One has to admit that it's all cool and impressive and has cute little pictures in it. And that, when using stuff like this, one probably feels proud and professional. Just like people who work with Protools probably think they are better musicians? Duh.
But IMHO the drum tools mentioned are all pre-defined stuff, some of them totally overbloated and overfeatured, some of it is even "too perfect", and in general it just gets in my way of making my own music.

But maybe one day I will also use Drumcore and be proud that in my own tunes I have a world-class drummer playing along?? But who the hell wants that!
I want my personal freedom to have "an instrument" and then do whatever I want with it, no pre-defined loops and nothing. You only make good music with an instrument that you feel is your own. So I do not want to have a box with a hundred drums in it and a thousand buttons to operate the settings. Noooo. Not even for free. You see?

I really like the hand slapping on the knees tip. That makes sense, even though the levels are quite low

Yes, its very subtle but it adds just enough "life" to give a tune a different feel. It's only noise but it's made directly by a human being, and listeners can feel such things. Funny is: In the (hyper-realistic) "Ruffrider" drumkit, there is one sample 'drummer move.wav' -- yes, Michael Kingston did put this human sound into the sample bank for the drumkit!

IMHO The music we make is often too perfect and even if it's perfect in an acoustic and technical sense, it has no soul. With an attitude that we can choose and combine virtual instruments that sound as natural as possible, this can be changed and lead to better music that generates genuine feelings again.

What inspired me is: Geoff Khan in this forum. What did he do? He took his bass guitar and sampled it. He made a soundfont out of it. And? It sounds absolutely great and real!! If you don't believe it, check out his demos.
Simply, I believe that this is the best approach. Make your own virtual instrument. And the second best approach is to choose from existing sample banks and try to combine the best elements and versions, to make it even better. So it must be possible to have the best drumkit, just like Geoff now has the best bass guitar soundfont.

(Sorry for all my rants

If you look for even more info, and drumkits, read here about Geoff's Live Kit 7 (which I am testing only now):
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c&start=15
and download this one too and test it: http://www.ajc-dev.co.uk/livekit7_SF2.zip

And finally, it should be mentioned that the "Blue Jay" kits sound very realistic.

[Angus_FX]

Ah well, BetaMonkey. And BFD. And Drumcore. One has to admit that it's all cool and impressive and has cute little pictures in it. And that, when using stuff like this, one probably feels proud and professional. Just like people who work with Protools probably think they are better musicians? Duh.
But IMHO the drum tools mentioned are all pre-defined stuff, some of them totally overbloated and overfeatured, some of it is even "too perfect", and in general it just gets in my way of making my own music.

OK, so I'm biased - and shamelessly so - but to call BFD pre-defined is to miss the point completely. Yes, the samples themselves are supplied, but the blending options you get with the discreet mic channels means that, with a little time and tweaking, a single BFD kit offers easily the same amount of sonic variety as ten or more traditional stereo-only drumsample sets. Not only that, but it lets you create your own drum mix from the raw multichannel recordings - impossible with a pre-mixed stereo library.

[Beardedone]

Sorry to ask what is probably a dumb question but how do I use the Goldrum Soundfont. It is a packed SF2 and I don't have software to extract it.

Thanks,
Gordon

[jamesridge]

I'm a Drumcore fan.

Since it is loop based, t is very different from drum sequencer programs. For me, it's best as a writing tool... something to help generate new ideas. The kit sounds are great, and you can trigger them from a sampler or sequencer but I tend to use the loops (or variations on the loops) since it really speeds up the songwriting process. And best of all... since these are actual people (drummers are people, right?) you don't have to futz around with groove/swing/humanize functions to make it sound real.

Buy drumcore and focus on songwriting.

Jay

P.S. The loops in garageband are not as good but equally useful for songwriting.

[djsubject]

Sorry to ask what is probably a dumb question but how do I use the Goldrum Soundfont. It is a packed SF2 and I don't have software to extract it.

Thanks,
Gordon

Try this

http://www.melodymachine.com/sfark.htm

[Beardedone]

Thanks man! My IE search page wasn't working.

[lharless]

just get drumcore.

i did a very in depth scientific test to see which was better.

heads= BFD
tails= Drumcore

drumcore it is.

i just like the word "core", it reminds me of apples. and if a drum could taste like an apple, hey, it's not so bad is it? so go with your stomach on this one...

[bassface]

Smurf, Drumcore isn't just loop-based. It's also MIDI, and you can create your own beats using their samples. Just FYI.

[FoxV]

sonicsmurf,
Keep up the rants. They're awesome! I'm learning tons.

(That's me with the blue hair!)

[sonicsmurf]

Hello. What did we learn just now? BFD is not pre-defined and Drumcore is not loop-based. Great, that's all terribly cool and impressive, dudes. And one fact is that I consider buying these products. But, if you allow me: Until then, I am trying something ELSE. Something simpler. Something more effective, maybe. Who knows until you try?

You know, the easiest thing is to go now and buy one of these big packages that give me x Gigabytes of drum stuff on my harddisk (unless I have to actually buy a new harddisk just to run it - as reported by some users here in the forum). And expansion packs, I forgot to mention! Maybe in the end I have 50 Gigabyte of stuff on my computer just to have... um... a simple drumkit that sounds good?!! Are you effing serious with that! (-...someone scratch my head please, I am holding drumsticks right now while trying to type, which looks pretty dumb... kidding. *g*)

So, in short, what do I want? I only want a drumkit that sounds good in my mix. That's not much. And because it's not much, it must be possible in a more compact way.

Maybe I am choosing a complicated way to find the most simple solution! But then, I am using Tracktion: I want my music tools to be lightweight. So I can concentrate on the music more than on the tools. And the music results will be better. A good formula that actually *works* in real life.
A simple soundfont player and one good drumkit in it is by far the easiest to handle, and also the least CPU-consuming solution. With one good drumkit I can make all kinds of music and the drums will sound great. Not convinced what I mean? So here comes...... Check out these recordings, all made with the "Natural Studio" NS-7 drumkit loaded in a simple soundfont player, even some heavy Rock tunes (and the drums do actually work well in the mix) and even an album recorded with one and the same drumkit: LISTEN

That's all I want to be able to do. Why do I need many Gigabytes of stuff and to load *huge* applications into my Tracktion when all i need is one drumset to play along with my music? Why do I need to learn about *all the many new functions* that come with a package like Drumcore? Do I need to read a manual first before I can put in a simple rock groove and use it in my song? How did we get to this point, anyway?
I don't want all that. I need my time for making music, concentrate on compositions, on grooves, on arrangements. Not for playing with the many endless parameters of a "drum module". Endless, yes!
In the Drumcore demo video (of course I watched them as I was interested in the product) it says: "The possibilities are endless". This is exactly what I do not want! Read my lips: No.

I do not want to waste my time playing with endless possibilities. As a musician who wants to *make music* and not play around with software tools as if they were toys, I want something as simple as Tracktion.

At the moment I am testing various styles with the 'RealAcousticDrums_3', a powerful kit that is not as "clean" as the ns-7 and cuts through any mix. In order to make it sound more alive, I am adding the (brand new) VST "Spectralive", sort of an exciter that makes everything sound more open and alive. I am not sure if this tool is even better than "VintageWarmer" to make a complete mix with sampled drums in it sound more real, but it seems promising. Any opinions on the Spectralive yes? It sure has the most elegant GUI I've ever seen (I could do the same with Photoshop though) and in general I become sceptical when something looks "like that", and in their marketing text they use very big words. - Ah well, maybe one should not doubt it because it sounds okay. Did you check out Spectralive? Anybody?

Current situation in the drum-testing lab: For some styles, the soundfont "RealAcousticDrums_3" sounds perfect when processed a little. And what's really incredible about it: The whole drumkit is only *one* MB in size. Yes, it does beat most others in quality. It sounds like a real drumkit - in a mix with other instruments! It is not as clean as the NS-7 so it cuts through a little better.
Now compare this 1MB drumkit... versus the Gigabytes of the large drum modules. Maybe you see what I mean. Yes? No?

So with just one simple soundfont, it is possible to have great results.

Oh, and people actually record *albums* with simple drumkit-soundfonts, here's album made with the free NS-7 drumkit (not very impressive drums here, but listen to a few songs for a while and you will find that the NS-7 drumkit is sounding like just a normal drumkit - which is exactly what I want! Nothing fancy, just make it sound like a real drummer. And remember this solution is free and lightweight and super-simple to handle, and now please listen to a few songs with the free NS-7 soundfont in it): here

There are other examples on the Internet. And that's all, really all, that I want to be able to make: Music that sounds good and with a drumkit that sounds realistic and not boring. So, therefore, for now I continue working on the soundfont thing !

(I loved the post by Lee Harless...)

[Slacknote]

4.) "Easyrider" and "Ruffrider" (by Michael Kingston Download)

Bad: The soundfonts are way too loud. There is no panning. The open hi-hat is too grungy and should be replaced. And a problem, if you only have a simple soundfont player, you have to assemble all the components before you can use the drumkits. So this needs work to make it simple to use.

Are you still working on these soundfonts? I'm tempted to do it myself but if you're working on it I'll just wait.

[sonicsmurf]

Yes, I am working on those, with the "Viena" editor. It won't take long now. It's just that I want to have all the kits in the same soundfont - with the same pannings and volumes, so I can directly switch from one kit to the other and compare to see which one fits best in the tune I am working on. This tweaking work takes a while until it's perfect. Bear with me, I will have it ready for testing.

Let me summarize what I know at this point: The Ruffrider and Easyrider kits by Kingston sound very *exciting* and special and they add lots of character to a tune, but at the same time they sound like a drumkit in a garage band, and need a bit of sound processing before they can be "normally" used in various styles (and still sound exciting). The NS-7 kit sounds extremely clean and not very punchy when not EQ'd, maybe a bit too "audiophile" for some styles, and the toms are too thin (and not panned wide enough) and the kickdrum sounds in some mixes artificial. The GoldDrums kit sounds woody and powerful but does not cut through a mix because it lacks the higher frequencies, also it sounds a bit boring in long recordings because it may be too neutral. And the "RealAcousticDrums" drumkit sounds like the best of all worlds (except the hi-hat which sounds unrealistic when used in faster songs!)... and is especially good in mixes of 5-person band. So if you would take the exciting cymbal sounds of the "Rider" kits, the snaredrum (i.e. all velocity layers) of the "NS-7" drumit, and then add those to the "RealAcousticDrums" kit, it should result in a perfect drumset that can be used in many styles and will always sound convincing (not too much, not too little, just normal). Of course, the challenge when putting together samples from different original drumkits is to adjust the samples so in the end, it sounds like one single drumkit again. (for those of you who are also into sound design: yes that's really not easy and it's tiny details that can spoil the perfect illusion in the end)...

Many guys on this board know how to make soundfonts, so that's not really a problem, but I want the perfect volumes and pannings for *all* different kits in the soundfont.

I am also looking into the SFZ soundfont player and how I have to make the soundfont so it can correctly play the selected "bank" (out of several banks) and how to handle the MIDI channel assignments for different soundbanks.

Just to remind you: A drumkit soundfont with *several* banks separated by different styles already exists! It was made by Geoff Khan (a master in instrument sampling) and it is here for download. So basically, I am trying to do something very similar! But, to my surprise, I did not find Geoff's kit all that useable (sorry for that, and it may be just the cymbals that do not sound convincing when used in a mix). The only bank I found more or less real-sounding in a finished mix was the "fusion kit"; the only component I would use from that kit would be the snaredrum of that one kit. This does not change the fact that Geoff is an absolute master when it comes to realistic sounding sampled instruments (but maybe he never was a drummer - or maybe he never was a drummer *in a band* and would not know precisely how it sounds then? I don't know...)

So I am trying to make a collection of realistic drumkits according to my own taste and judgement (I used to teach drumming and know exactly how it "should" sound and am not easily impressed). The result will be "normal sounding" drumkits. Normal and real, nothing more and nothing less. And simple to use. And free ouf course.