Looking for sound design tools (not sound effects)

[zircon]

I'm aware that delays in the spectral zone/filtered delays as well as very short delays can create interesting effects, but I was more referring to 'standard' delays. I don't think a standard delay has any place in this type of library because there is no way to tempo sync it.

[SFX]

Here are some of my favorite tools for sound mangling...


VST Instruments

Reaktor Ensembles
- Any/all ensembles by Rick Scott (Rachmiel).
- Any/all ensembles by Spirit Canyon Audio.
- Grainstates
- Metaphysical Function

Absynth

VAZ Modular


VST Effects

Any convolution processor. Check out the convolution libraries from Spirit Canyon Audio for intersting material.

Any/all effects from Destroy FX (Smart-Electronix)

Spektral Delay

iZotope Spectron

And... tons of delay, reverb and pitch shifting.

I second John's opinion about Rick Scott's Reaktor ensembles. To me, this is the beauty of Reaktor - you can use some of the brilliant user library ensembles as a starting point, add your own samples, do a little tweaking or randomizing and end up with something very different and unusual. Granted, as a sound editor for film/tv, my work is less musical and more effects and mood oriented, but I think the same process would work for more musical sounds. Also, the Spirit Canyon stuff is great, but you can use anything in place of a reverb impulse to generate a hybrid sound in a convolution processor - I've been doing it since Sonic Foundry came out with what is now called Acoustic Mirror.

[tee boy]

Possibly.

I would probably be wiser to just be very selective. You'll hear delay on all the best ambient sample CD's, so its pointless wiping off the map. Just be sure why you're using it.

[John Vulich]

Interesting suggestions.

Here's another question - if I'm dealing with sounds that are going to be looped (as seamlessly as possible), can funky reverbs and delays still come in handy? I've been doing it a lot, and while I don't think adding reverbs really affects the patch adversely, adding delays would surely mess the sound up, right? The user might have a project at a different tempo then the one I used for the delay, and thus, it won't sync properly. Seems like a sort of fruitless endeavor.

Well by the very nature of using a loop it will have to have a BPM associated with it so I think your fears are moot. Plus delays can be used to add washes not just BPM synced rhythmic effects.

The one thing you have to remember, if you use delays for loops, is that you have to make sure to cut the loop in such a way that the delay is already present at the start of the sample. I usually render 3 times the length I want, for the loop, and just use the middle third usually with a bit of equal power crossfade.

[Scot Solida]

Consider Scot Solida, one of our peers here, has the most complete set of synth-types around, and is a professional sound designer (make sounds for this purpose, here's a thousand bucks and a case of beer). But Scot knows (just ask him) that if he was pressed to make a unique sound with only Synthedit, he could do it in a heartbeat. Scot has gear because he likes it, because working with different things suits different moods, because he is one of the few who really needs access to that extra 10%, and because he has to have a checklist to show prospective customers who understand very little about what he does, but know they have 'additive' on their sound checklist, and need someone to fill it.

His collection is shrinking.
Devon

Well, "sort of" on both counts. My collection is indeed shrinking. But my synthesis methods are not. I simply look for the best tool for each type of synthesis that I want to work with. Not necessarily the most popular, or even revered instrument...just the best for my needs, and with no compromises in sound quality.

For instance: nothing, and I mean n-o-t-h-i-n-g compares with the big modular when it comes to analog. I have made head-to-head comparisons between many, many "classic" analog instruments and the Big Fella, and none of them come close. Even the most basic sound on the modular is alive in a way I do not hear elsewhere. And with a whopping 70 modules, I am not in any danger of being short on flexibility. I even have a wavetable module...

For anything digital I turn primarily to Kyma. It is a "no-compromise" tool, and everything it does, it does better than the other things I have owned. Additive, FM, physical modeling, granular....it's all there and infinitely flexible. I have a goodly number of the DSP cards, so it doesn't come up short on juice. I can do just about anything I can imagine with it. It takes time, but my Kyma Sound library is growing everyday, and it frequently makes my other software and hardware instruments and effects obsolete.

As has been pointed out...I like that "extra 10 percent". Whether it comes from a synth or a high end preamp, I strive to have access to that little extra something in my studio.

Having said that...I could do 90% of what I do with nothing more than a good sampler and Reaktor/SE/etc. And I would second the mention of Metasynth. Amazing.

It really comes down to knowing the tools. I have been at this a very, very long time. I rarely have to learn new techniques when I get a new instrument or bit of software. Rather, I simply have to learn where they are hiding the filter and the LFOs...and if they've decided to name them anything cryptic...

Tee Boy: On the modular...you are right on the money. It is all about one's preferred method of work. The software stuff does things my modular will never be able to do (which is why I have a Kyma and a bucket load of software, too). Yet, the real deal is something that has a special place in my heart. Plus, to be blunt, I sit in front of a computer writing and doing sound design for a living. That's a lot of pointing, clicking and typing. When it comes time to play, the modular is very much a relief. I see the modular as a huge wall of effects and sound generators, all interactive. It is as likely to be wrapped around a guitar or a vocal as it is one of its (12!) oscillators. But, as you say, you can do much the same thing with software.

I guarantee you that your listeners will never care, so long as you write a good tune. Most music fans couldn't care less about what you use, just so long as you spark their imaginations.

[zircon]

Interesting suggestions.

Here's another question - if I'm dealing with sounds that are going to be looped (as seamlessly as possible), can funky reverbs and delays still come in handy? I've been doing it a lot, and while I don't think adding reverbs really affects the patch adversely, adding delays would surely mess the sound up, right? The user might have a project at a different tempo then the one I used for the delay, and thus, it won't sync properly. Seems like a sort of fruitless endeavor.

Well by the very nature of using a loop it will have to have a BPM associated with it so I think your fears are moot. Plus delays can be used to add washes not just BPM synced rhythmic effects.

The one thing you have to remember, if you use delays for loops, is that you have to make sure to cut the loop in such a way that the delay is already present at the start of the sample. I usually render 3 times the length I want, for the loop, and just use the middle third usually with a bit of equal power crossfade.

No, I did not mean "loops" as in drum loops. I said the sampled would be "looped seamlessly". There is a very large difference. These samples are melodic with no rhythmic content intended whatsoever. No BPM patches.

[lawapa]

At one point you compaired what you wanted to make sound wise to Atmosphere. These long evolving pads are hard to loop because they evolve over time. While that does not mean it's impossible to loop, It does mean looping takes that and cuts it off. I make these long evolving pads myself using many different elements. That makes my sets large if I strive to keep then that way. But looping simple content can save a bunch of space.

[tee boy]

Yup, I think that is one of the great things about Absynth - the feature list really doesnt do it justice. I mean, you get a few filters, a couple of generators, a ring mod, some delay effects... wow big deal! But there is something about the work flow in Absynth that just seems to work, its just SOOOO tweakable!

Again, this is something Iv only recenly come to realise. In the past is was all about 'which sounds the best' or 'what has the most featurs'. But those days are gone. Now Im always on the look out for 'different' rather than 'better'. Like I said Im having a right ball with this little analog setup:

I have:

- Mirage keyboard
- Moog filter
- Roland SRV330 reverb
- Loads of guitar pedals
- Mackie 1402

Its really is so cool. The Mirage is wacky, and I find mixing on the little desk so creative. I definately recommend trying it!

Scot,

Im thinking of investing in a modest module setup. Something i can work with straight away, but has room to expand. Any recommendations? My budget is flexible.

Cheers!

[bugs]

Plogue Bidule is an elegant and very powerful sound design tool (among other things). Similar to Max/MSP, but more user friendly IMHO, not to mention considerably less expensive.

http://www.plogue.com/index.php?option= ... &Itemid=35

[tee boy]

At one point you compaired what you wanted to make sound wise to Atmosphere. These long evolving pads are hard to loop because they evolve over time. While that does not mean it's impossible to loop, It does mean looping takes that and cuts it off. I make these long evolving pads myself using many different elements. That makes my sets large if I strive to keep then that way. But looping simple content can save a bunch of space.

Looping is always a compromise, but it can be made to work, especially these days with a that memory.

Atmosphere has such a big library because much of the modulation was recorded into the samples. This means that they have to be long. Traditionally these would be short loops with the modulations programmed into the host synth. But i guess its more authentic how Eric has done it. Also, its a hell of a copy protection tactic!

Id worry about making the sounds first. Looping is the final stage. Again, in the past you would have had to consider this early on, but now a library doesnt have to be limited in size so make the samples as long as they need to be (but ofcourse they dont need to be any longer!).

[Scot Solida]

!

Scot,

Im thinking of investing in a modest module setup. Something i can work with straight away, but has room to expand. Any recommendations? My budget is flexible.

Cheers!

As you might expect, I would recommend going to www.synthesizers.com and looking around. They have an entry-level system that costs around a grand, and the "pre-rolled" configurations go up from there. There are a good selection of modules and they are all very well-made. Dotcom is very "boutique"...hand-wired jacks and pots, that sorta thing. I tried a lot of stuff (a modular is a big commitment...so I researched a lot to find out what was right for me), and those guys came out on top for price, sound quality and build. Plus, I am partial to 1/4" jacks.

If you like a smaller format, and some wackier things, go to www.blacet.com. They sell kits as well as pre-made things, and the price is good. They have a couple of absolutely killer filters, as well as some esoteric things like the Binary Zone. They are compatable with stuff from www.wiard.com, as well.

I have a combination. I bought most of my stuff from Synthesizers.com, but there are seven Blacet modules in my cabinets as well. That's the thing about modulars...most are compatible, or can be easily made to be. I have two separate power supplies in my cabinets, but I could just as easily have used adapters. Nearly all modulars out there have compatible control voltages, so you can mix and match to get the combination that is best for your music.

But be warned: modulars are addictive! I have now piled around $14,000 into mine!

[tee boy]

Sound, thanks for the advice. CV is very foreign to me at the moment, so I'll have to do some research on that before I make any investments!

[Scot Solida]

Sound, thanks for the advice. CV is very foreign to me at the moment, so I'll have to do some research on that before I make any investments!

Essentially, Control Voltages are merely the controlling signals for analog modulars. You have a few kinds of jacks...one for audio connections, another for control voltages and yet another for gates and/or triggers. Gate/trigger signals simply tell the module to get to work, i.e "hey, a key's been pressed!" Voltages tell certain funtions how to behave ("gimme more resonance!" or "It's an F#!"). Audio signals are exactly what you would expect. Sometimes audio signals can be CV signals and vice-versa (say, when you want to modulate a filter with an audio-rate sawtooth wave from an oscillator).

In the old days, plugging the wrong cable into the wrong jack could be disasterous...these days it's a little safer.


Okay, on the topic at hand (sound design/looping): If you like a sound with the delays and effects on, why not? So, it won't be in time...big deal. In the old days, delay times were sync'ed up by ear, and were not always on the money. If you want them always in sync, make a few versions at different BPMs. Most hosts and some samplers can do time stretching, so if the samples end up in something like that, your delays should still lock more or less into place at the new tempo.

[zircon]

Actually, Atmosphere is a relatively SMALL library. If I recall, it has about 1000 patches and is no more than 4gb. That means the average patch size is pretty tiny in comparison to large orchestral libraries - what I have in mind will require slightly larger patches, for several reasons.

Scot, if a delay is built into a sample that is being used as part of an instrument patch, it is then already being 'stretched' so to speak and cannot be forced into the host tempo unless the user manually opens his or her sampler and edits stuff. Which I doubt a lot of people are going to want to do.

tee boy, I agree that Absynth 3 is a very powerful piece of software. However, I'm still not fond of the interface. There's a distinct lack of traditional knobs and sliders, and the font/font clipping just disagree with me on some level. I've never really felt comfortable working with Absynth for that reason.

[tee boy]

Sound, thanks for the advice. CV is very foreign to me at the moment, so I'll have to do some research on that before I make any investments!

Essentially, Control Voltages are merely the controlling signals for analog modulars. You have a few kinds of jacks...one for audio connections, another for control voltages and yet another for gates and/or triggers. Gate/trigger signals simply tell the module to get to work, i.e "hey, a key's been pressed!" Voltages tell certain funtions how to behave ("gimme more resonance!" or "It's an F#!"). Audio signals are exactly what you would expect. Sometimes audio signals can be CV signals and vice-versa (say, when you want to modulate a filter with an audio-rate sawtooth wave from an oscillator).

Gotcha. Actually, I do know a little about CV so Im completely dense towards it. I'll just have to spend a little time sorting out ways of interfacing between various things.

For example, its highly likely that I'll want to piece together hybrid systems. For example, running midi in sync with CV stuff. Baring in mind that midi isnt exactly tight, I would imagine this could be a slut to work out - say you wanted a midi synth through a CV env filter, the sync would need to be tight.

But, I guess thats all part of the fun, tarting around and what not. Its good to know I 'probably' wont blow up my 14G modular by plugin in my Virus into the wrong'un, hehe!

Cheers, its always an education!

btw, What kind stuff you upto with Metasynth these days Scot? Iv heard some stunning treatments done with this software, kinda like liquid formants that ripple through an audiofiles spectrum! Iv only used it briefly since my mac emulation software is a bit buggy at present. But I plan to explore this program extensively asap.


Zircon,
Yeah, I know what you mean. Atmosphere isnt huge by todays standards. I was kinda talking about in retrospect. My point was that should feel free to make samples as long as you feel fit. Some of the 'Twisted Textures' sounds are over a minute long