How do you like Tracktion?

[Mr. Tingle]

I reckon James has a point. At the end of the day access to his creation maybe taken out of his hands when he has paid a fair price (or not as the case maybe) for software that should do this job.

Living in the virtual world has to have a few draw backs I'm afraid, and this is one of them.

I would recommend getting XP, less need to re-install.

[Mr. Tingle]

I have an album done in cubase 3.5 on an old P133 (win98) sitting unused in the cupboard just in case I ever want to remix the album. It's extra clutter, but at least I know the system is usable with no extra internet or outside influence. This is only possible because the cubase copy was a cracked version (God bless their hearts). I don't recommend hacking and have only legit software now, but it does have its uses.

[james0tucson]

I can't see that as an infringement no matter HOW I look at it.

I look at it like this: If I enter into a relationship with these people, I'm surrendering authority to them. Consequently, I find myself unable to enter into that relationship. I see this as their problem to solve.

See, their marketing strategy reached me, and I happened to be in the market for their product... When I got to the till, I saw something in the sales agreement that I was unable to sign. It's that simple. Whatever cost of acquiring an interested customer, was lost AT THE TILL.

I don't mean to claim anyone is abridging my rights if I don't even have any relationship with them at all.

I consider the potential to be locked out of my work *by design* to be a much more serious thing than, say, obsolescence of tape decks or decomposition of organic paper.

[james0tucson]

what is this intentional obsolescence you're referring to??

Hard crypto to enforce the guarantee of obsolescence!

It's more than the company simply going out of business or the product being discontinued -- it's the *intentional* assurance that when they do, the product will cease to function.

That's fundamentally different from the paint company changing its pigments. It's more like a canvas that self destructs. A wise painter won't buy that kind of canvas, of course.

I'm just trying to explain why I haven't bought a certain range of products, despite the marketing for those products having reached me, and my reaching the till.

[james0tucson]

so basically you need a sequencer that has NO copy protection whatsoever, not even a serial number... because if you lose the S/N and the company goes out of business you are screwed...

That's *MY* responsibility... and the company didn't take steps in advance to *ensure* that I would lose the S/N. Completely different scenario! And the reason I am happy to use certain products and adamantly reject others.

sorry, I won'y be an ass any more... it's just a hair rediculous when 9r5% of the sequencers available have some means of authorization (even if it's as simple as a serial number).

Serial number is fine, as long as it's not an authentication tied to a specific hardware configuration.

I find it impossible to appreciate a company's point of view with respect to their copyright protection, if they don't see how they have reached too far and abridged mine.

I understand the issues that lead us here, but I don't agree that an appropriate solution is to ensure obsolescence to the degree that my tools stop working someday and are *guaranteed* to stay broken via some cryptographic scheme.

The suggestion that the tool is just a means to an end to a .wav, and is *supposed* to be temporary, doesn't exactly make me any more eager to buy it.

Obviously I'm the only person who really cares about this, but I suspect that sooner or later you will run into a similar problem; someone used cryptographic means to prevent you from doing something you had a right to do, leaving you with no recourse.

I'm so vehement about this because they are doing it *intentionally*.

[james0tucson]

This is true for your OS, as well. And as a previous poster noted, are you going to take the OS maker to task for developing software that will be intentionally obsolete? What about people with WindowsXP installations that will one day be unable to receive further 'validations' of their installs? I much more serious problem....

Actually, I expect to be able to run software under a virtual implementation of the OS API. I do have the same opinion of, say, Office2003, which is guaranteed, sooner or later, to put a cryptographic barrier between me and the source material for my written works. It is *designed* to expire, and when it does, I lose something of value.

However, I would have to take responsibility for it, since I would have entered into an agreement with the company.

I don't believe I am influential enough to persuade Microsoft to change, but I feel I may have some amount of influence on a smaller producer.
[/quote]

As mentioned, many companies have a history of releasing a "universal key" upon folding or dropping a product, depending on where the rights reside.

Put that in WRITING, and my argument ends, and my credit card comes out, get it???


The fact that nobody puts that release clause in writing is precisely what I'm on about!

[ModuLR]

so I have to ask this question out of pure curiosity... what host(s) do you use?

[james0tucson]

so I have to ask this question out of pure curiosity... what host(s) do you use?

FLStudio and eXT.

[Rock]

so basically you need a sequencer that has NO copy protection whatsoever, not even a serial number... because if you lose the S/N and the company goes out of business you are screwed...

That's *MY* responsibility... and the company didn't take steps in advance to *ensure* that I would lose the S/N. Completely different scenario! And the reason I am happy to use certain products and adamantly reject others.

sorry, I won'y be an ass any more... it's just a hair rediculous when 9r5% of the sequencers available have some means of authorization (even if it's as simple as a serial number).

Serial number is fine, as long as it's not an authentication tied to a specific hardware configuration.

I find it impossible to appreciate a company's point of view with respect to their copyright protection, if they don't see how they have reached too far and abridged mine.

I understand the issues that lead us here, but I don't agree that an appropriate solution is to ensure obsolescence to the degree that my tools stop working someday and are *guaranteed* to stay broken via some cryptographic scheme.

The suggestion that the tool is just a means to an end to a .wav, and is *supposed* to be temporary, doesn't exactly make me any more eager to buy it.

Obviously I'm the only person who really cares about this, but I suspect that sooner or later you will run into a similar problem; someone used cryptographic means to prevent you from doing something you had a right to do, leaving you with no recourse.

I'm so vehement about this because they are doing it *intentionally*.

Mackie never prevented you from doing something you had a right to do. If you choose not to use it for fear of not being able to use it in the future that's your buisiness, but you have no rights for using a free piece of software beyond the rights given by the software author. They could choose to to make a version that works 5 mins and that's no robbery.

Quite frankly this whole thing is silly. Most of this has been said but...

1st - The software still runs, the license is still valid, it's as functional now as it was the day it came out.

2nd - Like others have said... platforms and operating systems expire. I have a lot of songs programmed and storred on Amiga 400k floppies in my closet that can serve as evidence. (and yes it sucks but if I really wanted them I could go to the trouble just like you could with Tracktion if Mackie drops it)

3rd - It could happen that readily avalible electrical power will expire when we run out of oil, so worry about that.

4th - If you're that worried about it... download a cracked version of Tracktion... (in 29 years) BTW don't forget to download that PC emulator to run it on (for whatever machines we might be using then - if machines still exist)

[james0tucson]

Mackie never prevented you from doing something you had a right to do.

I agree -- my point is, they are soliciting my business, and I'd like to give it to them, but I *can't* and I am trying to make others understand my reasons, so that perhaps the situation can change.
I think I'm being reasonable.

If you choose not to use it for fear of not being able to use it in the future that's your buisiness,

Again, you do understand that I am trying to give them my business, and I'm not just complaining, right?

Quite frankly this whole thing is silly.

If it's not silly for "Them" to be concerned about their rights, it's not silly for ME to be concerned about mine.

1st - The software still runs, the license is still valid, it's as functional now as it was the day it came out.

For now, yes. But it does stop working, sooner or later.

2nd - Like others have said... platforms and operating systems expire. I have a lot of songs programmed and storred on Amiga 400k floppies in my closet that can serve as evidence. (and yes it sucks but if I really wanted them I could go to the trouble just like you could with Tracktion if Mackie drops it)

Actually, you're wrong -- the Amiga stuff didn't lock you out with *hard cryptographic* methods. There is a whole world of difference once you apply real crypto to the issue, and I don't think you're seeing the difference. In the US, simply making a device to circumvent this problem is a crime. There is a forseeable circumstance where it becomes a *crime* to access my own works, and I'm not going to support that.

3rd - It could happen that readily avalible electrical power will expire when we run out of oil, so worry about that.

You are trying to dismiss my concerns with irrelevant arguments. I'm not going there.

4th - If you're that worried about it... download a cracked version of Tracktion... (in 29 years) BTW don't forget to download that PC emulator to run it on (for whatever machines we might be using then - if machines still exist)

I'm not going to put myself in a position where I have to break the law just to preserve rights that I would prefer never to surrender in the first place. Unacceptable.

[pHz]

I'm not going to put myself in a position where I have to break the law just to preserve rights that I would prefer never to surrender in the first place. Unacceptable.

then sell all your software and buy an acoustic guitar ... a mike ... and a reliable hard-disk recorder ...

slainte rob

[pHz]

or just ONLY EVER play live ...

slainte rob

[Rock]

Oh and don't forget the sun will burn out.

Ok seriously... technically it's not really the software that stops working it's the machine stops working the software... in other words if the machine is left unchanged and is in working condition the software doesn't require a new machine #. Personally much offensive (especially since we have no way to know how long Mackie will continue doing a great job of providing new machine id files) is when a company like lexicon releases a hardware device right around the time XP comes out and they never bother to make drivers for it... They have that right, but it gave them an awful rep in the industry. Again Mackie will likely just release a working version if they drop it. When Gibson ran Opcode into the ground and dropped Studio Vision... Ugg bad memories... at least they released a free to download working version stripped of the copy protection.

[pHz]

no idea whether mackie intend to honour it but ...

... when this whole issue was raised AGES ago with jules he immediately responded that should tracktion development ever die he would release a 'universal' tracktion key for free and for nothing ...

... anyone ACTUALLY asked mackie if they will honour that gentlemans agreement ???

slainte rob

[SuitcaseOfLizards]

I do believe my copy of eXT requires a keyfile to fully function. I guess if if lose that and Jorgen dies, I'm out of luck. I guess James is too.

What copy protection does FL use? Anyone?