Good question. This!--keep it simple, keep it simple, keep it simple....sonicsmurf wrote:What did we learn just now?
Drumcore and BFD....not simple.
Keep it simple.
Keep it simple.
It's true wisdom and my new mantra!
Need help choosing between Drumcore and BFD for use in T
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- KVRist
- 478 posts since 22 Nov, 2004 from Alexandria, VA
Drumcore and BFD....not simple.
Keep it simple.
Keep it simple.
It's true wisdom and my new mantra!
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- KVRist
- 199 posts since 12 Apr, 2005
You know, FoxV, that's simply what I thought 
Tracktion... simple.
Drum geeks... complicated people. Who make complicated overfeatured modules and products. Because it's cool. It is, actually. Almost like a real drumkit standing in a room.
Drum geeks who turned into songwriters: They want simple solutions.
Is there any simple solution? Are drums instruments? Are drummers musicians? And who killed the groundhog? There is no SIMPLE answer!
Tracktion... simple.
Drum geeks... complicated people. Who make complicated overfeatured modules and products. Because it's cool. It is, actually. Almost like a real drumkit standing in a room.
Drum geeks who turned into songwriters: They want simple solutions.
Is there any simple solution? Are drums instruments? Are drummers musicians? And who killed the groundhog? There is no SIMPLE answer!
Last edited by sonicsmurf on Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRist
- 418 posts since 8 May, 2003 from Somewhere in the triangle...
I've tested it against the vintage warmer but am not convinced yet, it's a lot cheaper though!sonicsmurf wrote:Any opinions on the Spectralive yes?
What about final mix on a drum rack?
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- KVRist
- 199 posts since 12 Apr, 2005
I am thinking the same! Not yet convinced... And the fancy GUI, though it looks elegant, is a little irritating? If all it does is similar to the good old 'Aphex Aural Exciter' (which I got myself years ago, just after it came out), then why does it have to look like a high-end stereo component?Slacknote wrote: I've tested it against the vintage warmer but am not convinced yet, it's a lot cheaper though!
Sure it looks cool, but I find it "too tempting"... to ENDLESSLY play around with! Please give me audio tools that I can put in there and leave alone (after the settings are okay).
(Note to myself: I am probably the only musician who would actually prefer if I could turn OFF the fancy interfaces of some VSTi's and just use Tracktion's internal sliders for them. Because when I worked with Cubase it always put me into *looking mode*, while Tracktion fortunately puts me back into *listening mode*... and so I would prefer the plugins to be as neutral as possible.)
Yes, of course... this is how one should do it (I guess). And it's what I tried yesterday: I put all three in my master bus and tested many possible combinations of: FinalMix, VintageWarmer, and Spectralive.Slacknote wrote: What about final mix on a drum rack?
My dilemma is that I tend to fall for the old paradigm (and maybe it's simply a lie like so many other things in the marketing world): If something is expensive, it must be good, and if it's less expensive, it cannot be that good. But I have already learnt that the contrary is sometimes true: I bought the LoungeLizeard2 e-piano, only to find after thorough testing of many other EP's that the simple little "Mr Ray 73" is far better. It creates emotions. And after that I read in a forum that the keyboarders in there said that this little free plugin (with only a FEW buttons in it) just makes the nicest *music*. And I fully agree. I could find the link to that forum again if you want.
So, sometimes the cheaper things give a better result. And the Spectralive? At the moment I think what works best in my mixes is: If I add channel EQ's and compressors to the individual instrument tracks (e.g. just a bit of the Blockfish compressor effect on the drums track), in this case I don't really need FinalMix, and in the master bus I add "Spectralive" and the reverb plugin "Ambience" (a high-quality reverb plug-in from Smartelectronix.com with some unusual functions, like a gater) which I found very natural-sonding and so I do not use the internal reverb at all. This seems to result in a professional mix. Do I still need VintageWarmer when I use Spectralive? Is my perception true that VintageWarmer tends to *change* the sound of some instruments more than I want and that it can even sound a little distorted in the higher frequencies (which I do not want).
I am not yet sure. All I know is that I have to do a few more tests with different styles and mixes. In the end I will get rid of everything I do NOT need (already started that *g*) and I will have the setup I can use. I want to be completely finished with this when T2 comes out, so then I can start with some serious recording work.
Just like you, I am coming to this forum for answers. And to see how other musicians are setting up their little Tracktion studio - to get the best results
Forgot to say: Keep it simple!
Last edited by sonicsmurf on Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:31 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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- KVRist
- 199 posts since 12 Apr, 2005
-- just found another musician who makes tunes with the free "NS-7" drumkit:
http://www.musicv2.com/artist/programentalist
Hmmm!
I don't really want to comment on the quality of the compositions or the mixing and mastering skills. But here's my impression of the drums (NS-7 used in the context of other VSTi instruments): In some tunes, the drums sound okay! In others, it's quite clear that it's NOT a real drumkit: The NS-7 needs some equalizer work on it, plus a few effects, and so does the overall mix. But... I have heard other recordings made with the NS-7 and it sounded perfectly REAL.
Edit (bah, once again, ah well...) because here's an interesting demo of the new "Spectralive" plugin that's supposed to add more vitality to a mix: drums without / with Spectralive (hey you drummers - what do you think?)
...A little later: I am now convinced and will buy Spectralive. I made sure to check it with material that you also can test, and so I recommend this quick test: Open the Tracktion demo song "Everyone wants you" (yeah that grunge rock piece). Now insert Spectralive as the master effect. Turn up the volume and listen with and without the effect. The difference is drastic!
Okay, in this example we are not listening to a "realistic" drumkit, but still...
I tried to get a similar mix with FinalMix and VintageWarmer, but the best result I could make was with Spectralive. So I bought it.
(in other mixes, what seems to help the sampled drums appear more realistic and punchy is the Spectralive setting number 14: "Analog General 1")
http://www.musicv2.com/artist/programentalist
Hmmm!
I don't really want to comment on the quality of the compositions or the mixing and mastering skills. But here's my impression of the drums (NS-7 used in the context of other VSTi instruments): In some tunes, the drums sound okay! In others, it's quite clear that it's NOT a real drumkit: The NS-7 needs some equalizer work on it, plus a few effects, and so does the overall mix. But... I have heard other recordings made with the NS-7 and it sounded perfectly REAL.
Edit (bah, once again, ah well...) because here's an interesting demo of the new "Spectralive" plugin that's supposed to add more vitality to a mix: drums without / with Spectralive (hey you drummers - what do you think?)
...A little later: I am now convinced and will buy Spectralive. I made sure to check it with material that you also can test, and so I recommend this quick test: Open the Tracktion demo song "Everyone wants you" (yeah that grunge rock piece). Now insert Spectralive as the master effect. Turn up the volume and listen with and without the effect. The difference is drastic!
Okay, in this example we are not listening to a "realistic" drumkit, but still...
I tried to get a similar mix with FinalMix and VintageWarmer, but the best result I could make was with Spectralive. So I bought it.
(in other mixes, what seems to help the sampled drums appear more realistic and punchy is the Spectralive setting number 14: "Analog General 1")
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 163 posts since 22 Aug, 2004 from Seattle, WA
Well, different strokes for different folks...
The approach Smurf and Fox are taking sounds much less "simple" to me than loading drumcore, picking a beat I like (which has natural feeling and is not midi-quantized) and loading it right into a tune.
But that's just me, with very little computer/virtual instrument experience, and not a whole lot of interest in it. The idea of beats played by humans really appeals to me. Until I have live human drummers on my stuff I think I'm going to give Drumcore a try.
Smurf, I would love it if you could link directly to some finished pieces you reallyl like using the kits you're recommending.
Thanks!
The approach Smurf and Fox are taking sounds much less "simple" to me than loading drumcore, picking a beat I like (which has natural feeling and is not midi-quantized) and loading it right into a tune.
But that's just me, with very little computer/virtual instrument experience, and not a whole lot of interest in it. The idea of beats played by humans really appeals to me. Until I have live human drummers on my stuff I think I'm going to give Drumcore a try.
Smurf, I would love it if you could link directly to some finished pieces you reallyl like using the kits you're recommending.
Thanks!
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- KVRist
- 478 posts since 22 Nov, 2004 from Alexandria, VA
I'd probably agree with you were I not a drummer. That makes the difference, I think. I want to play a kit, not have someone create beats for me...though, I wouldn't be against that on rare occasion...but usually, I want to sit at my pintech heads, and bang away!bassface wrote:The approach Smurf and Fox are taking sounds much less "simple" to me than loading drumcore, picking a beat I like (which has natural feeling and is not midi-quantized) and loading it right into a tune.
Thanks!
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- KVRist
- 199 posts since 12 Apr, 2005
bassface, I wish I could give you such links, but I don't know examples of music made with *each* of these kits... 
Fox, I understand your point
Well... so it seems that the questions of the topic starter were answered, more or less. I was not sure if I should continue this thread or not, since the question seems to have been answered.
Anyway, if you're still interested in the topic and in the pros and cons of the various methods and approaches, last year there was a similar thread here: here
I guess that BFD and Drumcore and other complex drum-modules are good products for those who want or need to use them. On very fast computers with lots of harddisk space, such modules should run fine: Some users here confirmed that these modules run without problems.
But still, I personally do not want this type of solution. The simple solution with a small soundfont appeals to me. It seems to be closer to Tracktion's philosophy of "less clutter, more music".
And I have meanwhile heard hours of pretty solid music made with these free drumkits - in most cases is was of course the "ns_7" drumkit by Natural Studio. The drums sounded okay and it's a free solution. And it's cool to do it this way. My opinion.
So I have checked out everything I possibly could find in this sector. I downloaded about 40 of these drumkits (yes it took ages), I read all the user reviews about them, checked some background info on the sampled drumkits and mirophone settings and so on. And then I tested how they can be used in mixes of a typical 5-person band.
In many different styles from Jazz to Rock, playing together with other VSTi's, and/or with real instruments, even in programmed (or pad-recorded) MIDI drum-solos that were sitting on my harddisk. All with one goal: to find a drumkit that can be universally used in mixes and will convincingly cound like a real drummer in just about any musical context.
Surprise.
The winner of all these tests is not the "ns_7" and none of the other kits I mentioned and commented on. The drumkits I checked were either too clean (sounded sterile), or did not sound punchy enough, or the stereo panning of the cymbals and toms was bad, or the multi-samples were not layered in a way that made the kit playable with v-drums (pads), and in many cases, the hi-hats and the kickdrum were simply unusable. I played with the EQ settings to make the "ns_7" sound less thin and less clean, I added dirty Blockfish effects and VintageWarmer, and I played with the "RealAcousticDrums_3" for many hours because its overall sound is superb for dense mixes - but its closed hi-hat is a joke and so I started "combining samples" to make one perfect drumkit: Take the cymbals of the Ruffrider kit (which unfortunately is not multi-layered and therefore had no chance against the competition because it would never have the same dynamics), and then add the snare drum of the ns-7, but use the kickdrum of the GoldDrums set, and so on... I tested again to hear the results in various mixes. It just was not perfect. So I started looking again and downloaded every soundfont that even remotely LOOKED like a drumkit...
The solution was found hidden in the soundfont "233-poprockbank.sf2" which is a high-quality huge sample bank with 40 Megabytes of sounds inside. Now these sounds were obviously put together with one idea in mind: To have a selected combination of sampled instruments that sound great *together*. Interesting, I thought. Is anybody using that? I guess not. But I had already checked all other free drumkit soundfonts, so I started to test the one drumkit that's hidden in that little "virtual band" - and it's supposed to have been selected and combined so it works in a pop rock band. - Bam! These drums worked like a charm, no matter what style I used them in! And even the drum solos sounded convincing. Finally this sampled instrument sounded like a guy with drumsticks grooving along with the music, you could almost hear the poor guy sweating... so this drumkit sounded real. But, just like the other soundfonts, to be used in band mixes it needs a precise boost of the frequencies where the kickdrum and snaredrum get their "punch" effect. I tested many EQ settings and it's necessary to insert a Tracktion EQ to use this drumkit. The best EQ settings are, and you only have to set these 2 of the total 4 equalizer knobs:
1.) Mid band frequency=226Hz, Gain=16,63, q=1.01
2.) Mid band frequency=1310Hz, Gain=11.36, q=1.26
After EQ'ing, this drumkit has the frequency range it requires to sound good in a virtual band.
One last component is almost necessary to make the illusion perfect: An "exciter" effect to give the overall sound more vitality and make it sound more open, which I have added with the new VST "Spectralive".
Result: This drumkit works *great* in one style, in another style, and actually it worked just fine in many different mixes. The result is, at least for me, "the perfect drumkit".
I am not "recommending" stuff... I am just reporting what I tried and what I found out. Check out my combination if you wish, it does not take long and it's free. Here are the ingredients to cook up the perfect drumkit:
- The soundfont player "SFZ" (make sure when putting it in Tracktion to have it set for DFD - Direct From Disk streaming and to quality "draft" which seems sufficient and the effects being "off")
- The soundfont - use the one kit in there called "Clean Drum kit". (This drumkit is free to use even in commercial projects. Inside the soundfont file, it says under designers: "Too many to mention". It's clear that many people have worked on this. And to my surprise there's even a very useable Grand Piano in the same soundfont which actually replaced the Steinway multisamples I used before).
- The Tracktion equalizer settings (see details above)
- The "Spectralive" exciter effect, on the preset number 4 (I bought this thingy yesterday and it actually makes *all* my recordings sound way more professional)
PS: and what happened to my all-in-one-best-of-drumkits-soundfont? Yeah, not finished yet. I was too busy finding the one drumkit I can really use. A good solution for us SIMPLE minds...
Fox, I understand your point
Well... so it seems that the questions of the topic starter were answered, more or less. I was not sure if I should continue this thread or not, since the question seems to have been answered.
Anyway, if you're still interested in the topic and in the pros and cons of the various methods and approaches, last year there was a similar thread here: here
I guess that BFD and Drumcore and other complex drum-modules are good products for those who want or need to use them. On very fast computers with lots of harddisk space, such modules should run fine: Some users here confirmed that these modules run without problems.
But still, I personally do not want this type of solution. The simple solution with a small soundfont appeals to me. It seems to be closer to Tracktion's philosophy of "less clutter, more music".
And I have meanwhile heard hours of pretty solid music made with these free drumkits - in most cases is was of course the "ns_7" drumkit by Natural Studio. The drums sounded okay and it's a free solution. And it's cool to do it this way. My opinion.
So I have checked out everything I possibly could find in this sector. I downloaded about 40 of these drumkits (yes it took ages), I read all the user reviews about them, checked some background info on the sampled drumkits and mirophone settings and so on. And then I tested how they can be used in mixes of a typical 5-person band.
In many different styles from Jazz to Rock, playing together with other VSTi's, and/or with real instruments, even in programmed (or pad-recorded) MIDI drum-solos that were sitting on my harddisk. All with one goal: to find a drumkit that can be universally used in mixes and will convincingly cound like a real drummer in just about any musical context.
Surprise.
The winner of all these tests is not the "ns_7" and none of the other kits I mentioned and commented on. The drumkits I checked were either too clean (sounded sterile), or did not sound punchy enough, or the stereo panning of the cymbals and toms was bad, or the multi-samples were not layered in a way that made the kit playable with v-drums (pads), and in many cases, the hi-hats and the kickdrum were simply unusable. I played with the EQ settings to make the "ns_7" sound less thin and less clean, I added dirty Blockfish effects and VintageWarmer, and I played with the "RealAcousticDrums_3" for many hours because its overall sound is superb for dense mixes - but its closed hi-hat is a joke and so I started "combining samples" to make one perfect drumkit: Take the cymbals of the Ruffrider kit (which unfortunately is not multi-layered and therefore had no chance against the competition because it would never have the same dynamics), and then add the snare drum of the ns-7, but use the kickdrum of the GoldDrums set, and so on... I tested again to hear the results in various mixes. It just was not perfect. So I started looking again and downloaded every soundfont that even remotely LOOKED like a drumkit...
The solution was found hidden in the soundfont "233-poprockbank.sf2" which is a high-quality huge sample bank with 40 Megabytes of sounds inside. Now these sounds were obviously put together with one idea in mind: To have a selected combination of sampled instruments that sound great *together*. Interesting, I thought. Is anybody using that? I guess not. But I had already checked all other free drumkit soundfonts, so I started to test the one drumkit that's hidden in that little "virtual band" - and it's supposed to have been selected and combined so it works in a pop rock band. - Bam! These drums worked like a charm, no matter what style I used them in! And even the drum solos sounded convincing. Finally this sampled instrument sounded like a guy with drumsticks grooving along with the music, you could almost hear the poor guy sweating... so this drumkit sounded real. But, just like the other soundfonts, to be used in band mixes it needs a precise boost of the frequencies where the kickdrum and snaredrum get their "punch" effect. I tested many EQ settings and it's necessary to insert a Tracktion EQ to use this drumkit. The best EQ settings are, and you only have to set these 2 of the total 4 equalizer knobs:
1.) Mid band frequency=226Hz, Gain=16,63, q=1.01
2.) Mid band frequency=1310Hz, Gain=11.36, q=1.26
After EQ'ing, this drumkit has the frequency range it requires to sound good in a virtual band.
One last component is almost necessary to make the illusion perfect: An "exciter" effect to give the overall sound more vitality and make it sound more open, which I have added with the new VST "Spectralive".
Result: This drumkit works *great* in one style, in another style, and actually it worked just fine in many different mixes. The result is, at least for me, "the perfect drumkit".
I am not "recommending" stuff... I am just reporting what I tried and what I found out. Check out my combination if you wish, it does not take long and it's free. Here are the ingredients to cook up the perfect drumkit:
- The soundfont player "SFZ" (make sure when putting it in Tracktion to have it set for DFD - Direct From Disk streaming and to quality "draft" which seems sufficient and the effects being "off")
- The soundfont - use the one kit in there called "Clean Drum kit". (This drumkit is free to use even in commercial projects. Inside the soundfont file, it says under designers: "Too many to mention". It's clear that many people have worked on this. And to my surprise there's even a very useable Grand Piano in the same soundfont which actually replaced the Steinway multisamples I used before).
- The Tracktion equalizer settings (see details above)
- The "Spectralive" exciter effect, on the preset number 4 (I bought this thingy yesterday and it actually makes *all* my recordings sound way more professional)
PS: and what happened to my all-in-one-best-of-drumkits-soundfont? Yeah, not finished yet. I was too busy finding the one drumkit I can really use. A good solution for us SIMPLE minds...
Last edited by sonicsmurf on Mon May 02, 2005 7:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
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- KVRist
- 199 posts since 12 Apr, 2005
Let me mention this, otherwise the alternatives discussed here would be incomplete: Did you know that you can, quite easily, have real drummers on your stuff?bassface wrote:The idea of beats played by humans really appeals to me. Until I have live human drummers on my stuff...
Some composers and "one-man-band" musicians use a convenient service offered by small studios: "Drum Track Replacement".
You send them your recording and for a fee they record a a real drummer playing along with your music, then they send the new tracks and the mix back to you. One of the studios offering the service is www.dawpro.com
-- @ drummers only: Check out one of their tracks [[here]] - now THAT's what I call drumming! And a great sounding kit.
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- KVRist
- 418 posts since 8 May, 2003 from Somewhere in the triangle...
What eq do you use?sonicsmurf wrote: 1.) Mid band frequency=226Hz, Gain=16,63, q=1.01
2.) Mid band frequency=1310Hz, Gain=11.36, q=1.26
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- KVRist
- 199 posts since 12 Apr, 2005
T's internal EQ because of its good quality.Slacknote wrote: What eq do you use?
The EQ has 4 disc-shaped controllers for shaping an EQ curve, right? When moving one of them, at the right side in the properties panel you can see the values.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 163 posts since 22 Aug, 2004 from Seattle, WA
Thanks for sharing all that research and effort with us, Smurf: truly a heroic effort.
I would love to hear an example of one of your tracks with the new drum kit as soon as you have something recorded. Perhaps you could tack it on to this thread?
I would love to hear an example of one of your tracks with the new drum kit as soon as you have something recorded. Perhaps you could tack it on to this thread?
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- KVRAF
- 2565 posts since 30 Mar, 2004 from Phoenix AZ USA
Great drum sounds but I really don't like the mix on any of their sample material.sonicsmurf wrote: -- @ drummers only: Check out one of their tracks [[here]] - now THAT's what I call drumming! And a great sounding kit.
All songs sound boosted in the highs and lack warmth, also the signal to noise ratio is pretty bad.
But that's what happens when you let the drummer do the mix.
It's like a demo for drums.
It seems like the drums got everything and the rest just playing in the background (almost mono)
BTW I love BFD.
Check out my "drum demo" song for BFD.
http://www.andras-shimon.com/MUSIC/Spectra3.mp3
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 163 posts since 22 Aug, 2004 from Seattle, WA
Thanks for that track, Andrew.
Hip! And the drums sound pretty natural.
Hip! And the drums sound pretty natural.