I finally understood modes

[jancivil]

I also don't understand why today people keep talking about the "jonian" (it's the Major, why do we need another name?) and the "Aeolian" (it's the minor, and again we don't need another name for it).

Really?
JFC.

I’ve gone into this numerous times because of the general misapprehension particularly re Ionian v. major scale.

Ionian scale, sure, it’s identical to major.
Major scale has a key, and lives in the land of tonality. Tonality means a particular drive to the tonic chord (if sometimes belayed or subverted for a moment). Major scale’s 7th degree is known as “leading tone”, ie., 7 leads to 8. Part and parcel with dominant to tonic harmonies.

OTOH, there is music that uses the same 7 tones modally. In Indian Classical Music, the “Hindustani” (northern) theory, one of ten parent ragas is known as Bilaval; westerners will call it a mode, there it’s called “thaat”. It doesn’t involve harmonic movement at all. ^7 may move to 8, but probably (far?) more often than not it does other things. Their theory of composition insists on preferred shapes known as Vakra, which I see related to ‘zigzag’ in English. I’ve studied a fair few raags and I don’t suppose 7-8 is highly preferred.

Frank Zappa’s Watermelon in Easter Hay is E Ionian. The ^7 is never leading tone. The harmony is IV - I again and again with an ostinato.
D# is the first note of the melody, on the IV. It goes to B, then to A-G# on the I. Later it occurs on I as a nice major 7 with no need to resolve.
It’s not tonal. There’s no V-I.

“Tonal music” is intrinsic to functional harmony. At the outset of our tonal period having pretty much eclipsed modal polyphony, one feature is making a minor mode functional, ie., as though there’s a harmony unavoidably attracted to a ‘i chord’. This of course means raising the native 7 a semitone making a triad on degree 5, which was minor quality, into major quality. We call this the dominant-tonic paradigm.

Aeolian doesn’t do this.
(Now, I’ve read up a little bit on this and there is more than one school of thought on the origin of the harmonic minors. We’re 6/7ths the way to melodic minor with Dorian.)

AS always, the best way to really understand modes is to listen, read and analyse music written using them.

Well, I do agree with listen, but music notation as primary here - whether this is Medieval to Renaissance or rock or fusion players on a two chord vamp or what-have-you - well, to me seems secondary if at all pertaining. (We sight sang from Neumes at CCM, and the rhythmic concept is rather different even in the high renaissance than it is by the time of this transition to our dominant-tonic paradigm.)
Not everyone cares, either.

Which takes us to “Ultimately who gives a f**k anyway”.

[jamcat]

I thought I understood modes until I read this thread.

[fmr]

If it "hovers around A", did it occur to you that A is the "repercusa" (tenor note, dominant, salmodic tone, whatever you call it) of the Dorian Mode?

Not in this case.

Again, C is the "repercusa" (tenor note, dominant, salmodictone, whatever you call it) of the Phrygian mode.

Again, not in this case.
Both pieces are medieval, not written in one of the 4 church modes. They are secular. So "Psalmadic" or recitation tones don't really apply, do they?

Maybe. I cannot judge without taking a look. But the fact they are "secular" is meaningless. Secular music pretty much followed religious music, in what concerns composition methods and modes.

[BertKoor]

Secular music pretty much followed religious music, in what concerns composition methods and modes.

That's a rather bold statement. I thought it heavily depends on time & place.
How secular & religious music interact can be a deep subject of study.
Since some decades we're in a period again where religious music is slowly catching up with secular music.

[fmr]

I also don't understand why today people keep talking about the "jonian" (it's the Major, why do we need another name?) and the "Aeolian" (it's the minor, and again we don't need another name for it).

Really?
JFC.

I’ve gone into this numerous times because of the general misapprehension particularly re Ionian v. major scale.

Ionian scale, sure, it’s identical to major.
Major scale has a key, and lives in the land of tonality. Tonality means a particular drive to the tonic chord (if sometimes belayed or subverted for a moment). Major scale’s 7th degree is known as “leading tone”, ie., 7 leads to 8. Part and parcel with dominant to tonic harmonies.

Modes have tonic and dominant too. And they have "kind of" leading tones (cadence formulas) although those are not a semitone away from the tonic. Many of the things that were incorporated in the tonal system were there already centuries before, through practice. Tonality didn't appear out of nowhere - it was a consequence of the muscial practice, that was being slowly developed. The fact that we became reduced to just two modes is a loss, IMO, but it is a consequence of the mentioned musical practice.

OTOH, there is music that uses the same 7 tones modally. In Indian Classical Music, the “Hindustani” (northern) theory, one of ten parent ragas is known as Bilaval; westerners will call it a mode, there it’s called “thaat”. It doesn’t involve harmonic movement at all. ^7 may move to 8, but probably (far?) more often than not it does other things. Their theory of composition insists on preferred shapes known as Vakra, which I see related to ‘zigzag’ in English. I’ve studied a fair few raags and I don’t suppose 7-8 is highly preferred.

Different culture, different way of understanding music. We call that "modes" for lack of a better definition, and because the word "mode" is a broad concept that covers pretty much anything. But their use is different. I'm not familiar, but I believe they also have their own "melodic formulas" and "cadence formulas". Correct me if I'm wrong.

Frank Zappa’s Watermelon in Easter Hay is E Ionian. The ^7 is never leading tone. The harmony is IV - I again and again with an ostinato.
D# is the first note of the melody, on the IV. It goes to B, then to A-G# on the I. Later it occurs on I as a nice major 7 with no need to resolve.
It’s not tonal. There’s no V-I.

What you describe isn't modal, IMO. He may use whatever notes, it's just atonal music.

“Tonal music” is intrinsic to functional harmony. At the outset of our tonal period having pretty much eclipsed modal polyphony, one feature is making a minor mode functional, ie., as though there’s a harmony unavoidably attracted to a ‘i chord’. This of course means raising the native 7 a semitone making a triad on degree 5, which was minor quality, into major quality. We call this the dominant-tonic paradigm.

Aeolian doesn’t do this.
(Now, I’ve read up a little bit on this and there is more than one school of thought on the origin of the harmonic minors. We’re 6/7ths the way to melodic minor with Dorian.)

We agree in what concerns tonality, but again, as I wrote above, tonality didn't appear out of nowhere. And in modes you have a tonic, a dominant, a mediant, and the melodies evolve around these notes. It's A SYSTEM; and it ows nothing to the tonal system in that aspect. The fact it isn't found on harmony doesn't make it less of a system - just a different one.

Which takes us to “Ultimately who gives a f**k anyway”.

Well, we do, otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing this, right?

[fmr]

Secular music pretty much followed religious music, in what concerns composition methods and modes.

That's a rather bold statement. I thought it heavily depends on time & place.
How secular & religious music interact can be a deep subject of study.
Since some decades we're in a period again where religious music is slowly catching up with secular music.

I was talking about Middle-Ages, obviously.

[fmr]

DUPLICATED

[fmr]

DUPLICATED

[fmr]

DUPLICATED

[EdwardGivens]

But the fact they are "secular" is meaningless. Secular music pretty much followed religious music, in what concerns composition methods and modes.

What are you trying to pull here professor?
You're trying to say solmadic tones apply to instrumental party music!
Hang on everybody, stop dancing while I recite a canticle.

I for one have reached the terminatio and could use a drink.

[ghettosynth]

Since some decades we're in a period again where religious music is slowly catching up with secular music.

Indeed. Is this modal?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D5148rRIkw




...I'll show myself out...

[fmr]

But the fact they are "secular" is meaningless. Secular music pretty much followed religious music, in what concerns composition methods and modes.

What are you trying to pull here professor?
You're trying to say solmadic tones apply to instrumental party music!
Hang on everybody, stop dancing while I recite a canticle.

I for one have reached the terminatio and could use a drink.

Oh come on... Look, take a listen to this. This is just an example of a "cantiga" (old medieval song) from Alfonso X of Castilla, and belongs to "Cantigas de Santa Maria", one of the oldest collections of medieval songs that exists. It's written in Galician-Portuguese (despite Alfonso being castillan, the "cultivated language" in all Hispania by the time was the Galician-Portuguese). The song is clearly written in the Mode of D. All musical phrases are clearly structured around the polar notes of the mode.

As I said, although the style is not "religious" (this is secular music) the modes and the composition techniques used (melody structures, formulas, cadences, etc.) are the same. I can get you examples of other collections of secular music, if you want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCGyDmclpS8

[jamcat]

The song is clearly written in the Mode of D.

[jancivil]

I find it hilarious the dissonance between insisting on one name obviating “Jonian” or Aeolian (with clear differences not so difficult to grok) vs. “Mode of D” (as though requiring the esoteric knowledge) instead of Dorian.

[EdwardGivens]

although the style is not "religious" (this is secular music)

it's a song to the Virgin Mary, yet not "religious".
And you have yet to retract your absurd statement that an estampie - an instrumental secular bit of medieval fluff, might contain a Psalmadic tone, as if it's part of the liturgy. Quit pulling terminology you don't understand out of your backside and I won't have to mock you anymore.
Or find better grad students to do your research.