Bumpity...
sonicsmurf,
How's it coming along?
- Fox
Need help choosing between Drumcore and BFD for use in T
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- KVRist
- 478 posts since 22 Nov, 2004 from Alexandria, VA
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- KVRist
- 199 posts since 12 Apr, 2005
Yes my friend, I have a "result" for you, 2 files to download, and they're in this post.
There was a lot going on here!
I am actually glad you bumped this one, I wanted to share with you what I found. So... my little Internet journey of the past days (it sure seemed like one) led me to unknown territory and to places where I would never, never have looked for the one soundfont that can be used (and really used without ifs and whens and buts and equalizing and whatnot) in a virtual band mix. Phew.
Summary: Of course I began with the ns_kit7 by Natural Studio as this is the most popular, and several musicians use this soundfont drumkit for productions and it's recording quality is the highest (but then 200MB is pretty big if I just want a drumkit in a mix with other stuff). I don't like the kickdrum and toms and I find it too thin (yes I also heard Hardrock made with it) so I find it the perfect Jazz kit, maybe a bit too clean, but just not useable for what I have in mind. I also tried the NS "Mini Kit" which was the old and smaller version of ns_kit7 and I liked it's unprocessed sound, but in mixes it did not sound convincing. Also, I needed a complete drumkit including toms. I tried the multi-bank drumkit Livekit7 made by our sampling grandmaster Geoff Khan in this forum (and sure does the man know how to make sampled instruments sound real if you listen to his demos!!) but found that in the case of his drumkit, the cymbals sound far from real (yeah, just like other people commented in this forum). Next, I read in a keyboarder forum that those people love the "Gold Drums" for all kinds of styles, I tried that one but later discarded it because you cannot use the kit without strong equalizing (adding more treble), and its nice woody-sounding snare drum appears weird under headphones.
Then I read a posting by LM, and he mentioned Kingston drums and I felt what he said could help, so I searched and finally found the Ruffrider and Easyrider kit. The concept behind these samples fascinated me and so I tried them (and learnt how to make my own SFZ mappings). But these kits sound a little too much like "garage band kits" to use them in any style, and the sample banks are not really complete (e.g. multiple layers) and so their usability is not as good as the other kits (and the dynamics is a problem too), all this despite the fact that the "Ruffrider" kit by Michael Kingston has the best closed hi-hat (!) for a mix and the best cymbals (ride and even crash cymbals!), but, the open hi-hat is awful. Anyway the Kingstom drums would need some work before using them in a normal manner.
I still wanted an easy solution: Simply throw the drumkit soundfont into sfz and then forget it because it sounds okay... it must be possible... I then found the "Clean Drum Kit" (a part of the "PopRockBank" mega-soundfont) which seemed to give a normal yet rather powerful impression in a band mix, but after some days I had to admit the snare drum is too metallic and the stereo panning of some instruments is not good. I found the "RealAcousticDrums" and was happy, because this one sounded neutral and even had an integrated percussion section for that occasional tambourine or conga sound you may need in a few tunes. And it sure did have the best and fullest sounding toms! But it was too dry. And the closed hi-hat was a joke (totally over-processed). And together with other instruments, this drumkit just drowned. Sigh... and still, all I wanted was one normal sounding drumkit, to use with normal music...
So I checked every soundfont site, new sites every day, systematically. I even began downloading free drum samples, selected the best, and simply put them into the Tracktion sampler and mapped them like a drumkit, and so I found that some sample combinations worked really well. I learnt to use the "Viena" editor and how to combine soundfont material. I ripped apart some soundfonts and added new samples. And in between all that, I drank a lot of coffee to keep me awake. Sometimes I played *real* drums to freshen up my ears again and to know again how real drumkits sound.
The final result:
"Band Drumkits 2005" - my own concept of 5 different drumkits, 4 of them sounding "similar" - of course because they sound like normal kits! - and one of them I added as a "special" one to add an extreme "driving effect" to a tune. Now, these 5 kits can even be used *without* equalization, this was the idea, just put them in there and play. Load them with the free sfz soundfont player, switch to the bank 128 (standard percussion bank) and select one of the 5 drumkits. Oh, yes I made sure that all 5 drumkits have the *same* volume levels so you can directly switch between them and compare:
DOWNLOAD realistic drumkit soundfont package "Band Drumkits 2005" (9,7MB) - to uncompress you should have the free sfArk Compression tool.
This soundfont is for free use, made with free samples from the Internet. No parts of the protected ns_kit7, Kingston kits, or sample banks mentioned in this posting were used. It is free to use and change if ever necessary - this was the idea.
Now, to *conveniently and simply* (I like simple) test the 5 drumkits and check how each one sounds, download the soundfont and the MIDI drumkit test file (play this with the soundfont to test it) which contains a bit of drumming (human feel).
Import this little MIDI file into your drum track (with the sfz player on that track of course) and now test and switch between the 5 kits, to hear how they sound.
(btw, I am compiling a "complete" virtual band soundfont called JamBand2005 including the best Yamaha grand piano and Rickenbacker bass guitar sound and only a few more instruments that are often needed, so these drumkits are just part of that)
I hope this is of some use to ALL PEOPLE who were looking for something like this... a totally simple, free, and CPU-friendly solution to have a normal drumkit for "real" music.
There was a lot going on here!
I am actually glad you bumped this one, I wanted to share with you what I found. So... my little Internet journey of the past days (it sure seemed like one) led me to unknown territory and to places where I would never, never have looked for the one soundfont that can be used (and really used without ifs and whens and buts and equalizing and whatnot) in a virtual band mix. Phew.Summary: Of course I began with the ns_kit7 by Natural Studio as this is the most popular, and several musicians use this soundfont drumkit for productions and it's recording quality is the highest (but then 200MB is pretty big if I just want a drumkit in a mix with other stuff). I don't like the kickdrum and toms and I find it too thin (yes I also heard Hardrock made with it) so I find it the perfect Jazz kit, maybe a bit too clean, but just not useable for what I have in mind. I also tried the NS "Mini Kit" which was the old and smaller version of ns_kit7 and I liked it's unprocessed sound, but in mixes it did not sound convincing. Also, I needed a complete drumkit including toms. I tried the multi-bank drumkit Livekit7 made by our sampling grandmaster Geoff Khan in this forum (and sure does the man know how to make sampled instruments sound real if you listen to his demos!!) but found that in the case of his drumkit, the cymbals sound far from real (yeah, just like other people commented in this forum). Next, I read in a keyboarder forum that those people love the "Gold Drums" for all kinds of styles, I tried that one but later discarded it because you cannot use the kit without strong equalizing (adding more treble), and its nice woody-sounding snare drum appears weird under headphones.
Then I read a posting by LM, and he mentioned Kingston drums and I felt what he said could help, so I searched and finally found the Ruffrider and Easyrider kit. The concept behind these samples fascinated me and so I tried them (and learnt how to make my own SFZ mappings). But these kits sound a little too much like "garage band kits" to use them in any style, and the sample banks are not really complete (e.g. multiple layers) and so their usability is not as good as the other kits (and the dynamics is a problem too), all this despite the fact that the "Ruffrider" kit by Michael Kingston has the best closed hi-hat (!) for a mix and the best cymbals (ride and even crash cymbals!), but, the open hi-hat is awful. Anyway the Kingstom drums would need some work before using them in a normal manner.
I still wanted an easy solution: Simply throw the drumkit soundfont into sfz and then forget it because it sounds okay... it must be possible... I then found the "Clean Drum Kit" (a part of the "PopRockBank" mega-soundfont) which seemed to give a normal yet rather powerful impression in a band mix, but after some days I had to admit the snare drum is too metallic and the stereo panning of some instruments is not good. I found the "RealAcousticDrums" and was happy, because this one sounded neutral and even had an integrated percussion section for that occasional tambourine or conga sound you may need in a few tunes. And it sure did have the best and fullest sounding toms! But it was too dry. And the closed hi-hat was a joke (totally over-processed). And together with other instruments, this drumkit just drowned. Sigh... and still, all I wanted was one normal sounding drumkit, to use with normal music...
So I checked every soundfont site, new sites every day, systematically. I even began downloading free drum samples, selected the best, and simply put them into the Tracktion sampler and mapped them like a drumkit, and so I found that some sample combinations worked really well. I learnt to use the "Viena" editor and how to combine soundfont material. I ripped apart some soundfonts and added new samples. And in between all that, I drank a lot of coffee to keep me awake. Sometimes I played *real* drums to freshen up my ears again and to know again how real drumkits sound.
The final result:
"Band Drumkits 2005" - my own concept of 5 different drumkits, 4 of them sounding "similar" - of course because they sound like normal kits! - and one of them I added as a "special" one to add an extreme "driving effect" to a tune. Now, these 5 kits can even be used *without* equalization, this was the idea, just put them in there and play. Load them with the free sfz soundfont player, switch to the bank 128 (standard percussion bank) and select one of the 5 drumkits. Oh, yes I made sure that all 5 drumkits have the *same* volume levels so you can directly switch between them and compare:
DOWNLOAD realistic drumkit soundfont package "Band Drumkits 2005" (9,7MB) - to uncompress you should have the free sfArk Compression tool.
This soundfont is for free use, made with free samples from the Internet. No parts of the protected ns_kit7, Kingston kits, or sample banks mentioned in this posting were used. It is free to use and change if ever necessary - this was the idea.
Now, to *conveniently and simply* (I like simple) test the 5 drumkits and check how each one sounds, download the soundfont and the MIDI drumkit test file (play this with the soundfont to test it) which contains a bit of drumming (human feel).
Import this little MIDI file into your drum track (with the sfz player on that track of course) and now test and switch between the 5 kits, to hear how they sound.
(btw, I am compiling a "complete" virtual band soundfont called JamBand2005 including the best Yamaha grand piano and Rickenbacker bass guitar sound and only a few more instruments that are often needed, so these drumkits are just part of that)
I hope this is of some use to ALL PEOPLE who were looking for something like this... a totally simple, free, and CPU-friendly solution to have a normal drumkit for "real" music.
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- KVRist
- 478 posts since 22 Nov, 2004 from Alexandria, VA
Awesome! Many, many thanks. I will download this in a couple of hours (when I get home from work) and test it through the weekend. I'll let you know what I think.
But I can't begin to say enough thank you's!
Even if your Kits are not perfect for me, you've set me on the right track for what I'm wanting to do. It may be worth me learning viena, and programming drums kits that fit my playing...but, if I'm lucky, you will have provided me with the perfect solution, and I can just sit on my lazy can, and DRUM!!!!!!!!
But I can't begin to say enough thank you's!
Even if your Kits are not perfect for me, you've set me on the right track for what I'm wanting to do. It may be worth me learning viena, and programming drums kits that fit my playing...but, if I'm lucky, you will have provided me with the perfect solution, and I can just sit on my lazy can, and DRUM!!!!!!!!
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- KVRist
- 199 posts since 12 Apr, 2005
You're welcome, Fox!
Now, I am not finished (just like you mention it's a matter of trying to improve it until it really fits your stuff). When I have something better I will inform you so you can also try it - "better", you ask? Yes, maybe so: Yesterday I again tried the Easyrider kit and since it was not useable without lots of tweaking, I made a "useable" SFZ mapping for it (changing the volumes and velocity layers - and finally in a mix this kit sounded extremely good! Superb, in fact. Of course I also re-mapped and tweaked the "Ruffrider" kit but the result was not good, it sounded like a cheap old kit. So my next step is to turn the "Easyrider" kit into a perfect soundfont and then add it to the other drumkits , after hopefully getting approval from M. Kingston. Believe me, the Easyrider kit is the one that simply must be added to that best-of "band drumkit" collection. So, more for you in a few days. Please let me know how this stuff works for you.
Now, I am not finished (just like you mention it's a matter of trying to improve it until it really fits your stuff). When I have something better I will inform you so you can also try it - "better", you ask? Yes, maybe so: Yesterday I again tried the Easyrider kit and since it was not useable without lots of tweaking, I made a "useable" SFZ mapping for it (changing the volumes and velocity layers - and finally in a mix this kit sounded extremely good! Superb, in fact. Of course I also re-mapped and tweaked the "Ruffrider" kit but the result was not good, it sounded like a cheap old kit. So my next step is to turn the "Easyrider" kit into a perfect soundfont and then add it to the other drumkits , after hopefully getting approval from M. Kingston. Believe me, the Easyrider kit is the one that simply must be added to that best-of "band drumkit" collection. So, more for you in a few days. Please let me know how this stuff works for you.
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- KVRAF
- 1855 posts since 21 Sep, 2004 from Musician, Recording Engineer, Producer
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- KVRist
- 199 posts since 12 Apr, 2005
sorry to hear that! But the LINK link works, I just tested it with Firefox and MSIE, the file is definitely on the server. Maybe if you right-click on the link and save it like this, it works?-
- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
linkie workie here.
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- KVRAF
- 1855 posts since 21 Sep, 2004 from Musician, Recording Engineer, Producer
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- KVRist
- 199 posts since 12 Apr, 2005
Thanks Greg
China? Hm, there sure is no reason why they would block that site. I'll try to upload it to some other place
China? Hm, there sure is no reason why they would block that site. I'll try to upload it to some other place
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- KVRAF
- 1855 posts since 21 Sep, 2004 from Musician, Recording Engineer, Producer
The strangest sites are blocked sometimes. I have never been able to visit any geosite page while here. I can visit the propellerheads site and even log in but if I try to purchase something I can go to the last page but when I hit submit it never goes through. I've been wanting to upgrade to reason 3 but I will have to wait till I go home to purchase it.sonicsmurf wrote:Thanks Greg
China? Hm, there sure is no reason why they would block that site. I'll try to upload it to some other place
I don't get it
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- KVRist
- 199 posts since 12 Apr, 2005
Wow... (I just made a decision never to emigrate to China
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- KVRist
- 418 posts since 8 May, 2003 from Somewhere in the triangle...
Thanks a bunch mate! I'm testing right now, let me know if you've got any news on the other kits, I'm really interested in you interpretation of the Rider kits, like you said they have some really good aspects!sonicsmurf wrote:Yes my friend, I have a "result" for you
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- KVRist
- 199 posts since 12 Apr, 2005
Yes slack node, the Easyrider kit is definitely worth working on. The cymbals are so good. They really add character. I'll let you guys know when it is ready (being a nice guy I'll ask for approval from the maker of that kit... first!)
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- KVRist
- 478 posts since 22 Nov, 2004 from Alexandria, VA
Dag nab it! I had to travel to DC this weekend, so no time to play with these kits. But I should have some time early next week. I'll check back in then.
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- KVRist
- 418 posts since 8 May, 2003 from Somewhere in the triangle...
It makes me laugh every time you're calling me "slack node", you're not a power engineer are you?sonicsmurf wrote:Yes slack node,