MIDI DELAY ON PLAYBACK ...HELP!

[xs2media]

Hi there at Muse!

SETUP;
I have a Receptor with OS version 1.3 and thinkin of upgrading to 2 GB RAM and 200 GB Harddrive...and workin on a well specs PC with Cubase SX 1.3.
But before upgrading and investing again, i hoping to see this annoying problem being solved first;

PROBLEM DESCRIPTION ;
I create a miditrack 1 and a part and drawing in some midi notes in the drum editor.
It plays back in time and is very tight and in perfect sync with Cubase's metronome click.

Then i copy this track on miditrack 2, and instead of Cubase's internal vst instrument, i choose the Receptor as the playback source.
Now its not as tight compared to the 1st track and not in sync with SX's metronome. Sometimes it sounds like a phased sound ('kinda chorussed').

To bring the Receptor in sync again with track 1, i have to go to the Inspector to adjust the playback timing of the miditrack with a negative value of 30ms.
The result is the receptor midi part plays back earlier and is in sync again.

As you can imagine, this is not the most comfortable way of working...

I tried all kinda buffer settings ( i own a DIGI001 and the M-Audio Ozonic), but this didnt help at all. Also the buffer settings on my Receptor coulndt solve it.

The cause is something with Midi Timing and Playback!

PLEASE HELP! I really wanna upgrade the Receptor, but if this cant be solved, i cant see no other way then selling it

PS. will REWIRE solve it then?

[dusted william]

Try this,

I had the same problem with SX 1, but not with hardware, I think this may fix your problem.

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/steinberg- ... ulate.html

good luck

dw

[xs2media]

Sorry, i forgot to mention,
i've tried this one (the midi port enabler trick) too, but no positive results too

Thanx anyway!

[Rick@MuseResearch]

Try the Receptor 1.4 update, we fixed a problem with MIDI timimg when Receptor was set to EXTERNAL MIDI sync.

[xs2media]

thanx MaxReverb!

i'll try the 1.4 update, though it's a beta...
I'll let you know as soon as i have installed it and testing it extensively...
(since i am here in europe and its midnight, i'll let you know 2morrow:) )

thanx again!

[DanTimis]

Some plug-ins have a delay that is inherent in the algorithm they use. Cubase has a feature called PDC (plugin delay compensation). For this feature to work, the plug-in has to report the amount of delay it produces. Cubase uses this information to send MIDI ahead of time to the plug-in. It does that automatically, but otherwise it is the same as what you had to do manually. Unfortunately, there is no automatic way for Cubase to know what kind of plug-in you are running in Receptor, and what kind of delay is being introduced by the plug-in.

All hardware synths have latency. If you compare Receptor with a traditional synth, you will find that some synth have a slightly lower latency, while other have a larger latency. If you compare Receptor with Cubase, depending on your sound card of course, most of the time Receptor will have a lower latency. When I say compare it with Cubase, I mean run the same plug-in, play a note on your keyboard, use a MIDI splitter to drive both the Receptor and Cubase, take both audio signals into your mixer, one panned left, one pan right, and record it in your DAW.

Moreover, if you choose a plug-in that has little or no delay, like let's say 4front piano, set the buffer size at 32 or 64 samples on Receptor, you will find that the latency is 5-10 milliseconds, not 30.

[DanTimis]

Try the Receptor 1.4 update, we fixed a problem with MIDI timimg when Receptor was set to EXTERNAL MIDI sync.

Indeed 1.4 fixes the problem with MIDI clock set to external sync. But, from your description you are not using MIDI clock. Still it is worth trying 1.4 because it has other fixes, and if we are going to try to reproduce you problem it's easier to use the same version.

I forgot to ask. What is the plug-in you are using on Receptor? What is the buffer size on your sound card? The latency may actually be caused by your soundcard when it records the audio from Receptor.

[Hybernation]

Try the Receptor 1.4 update, we fixed a problem with MIDI timimg when Receptor was set to EXTERNAL MIDI sync.

Indeed 1.4 fixes the problem with MIDI clock set to external sync. But, from your description you are not using MIDI clock. Still it is worth trying 1.4 because it has other fixes, and if we are going to try to reproduce you problem it's easier to use the same version.

I forgot to ask. What is the plug-in you are using on Receptor? What is the buffer size on your sound card? The latency may actually be caused by your soundcard when it records the audio from Receptor.

Dan,

I have run some similar testing as the original thread starter did. There is definitely a noticable MIDI latency (in Sonar, I have to adjust the track to playback -40 "ticks" early to compensate). It doesn't seem to matter if one or multiple MIDI channels are playing back into Receptor, it's there. I monitored the Receptor output multiple ways to make sure it's not a soundcard latency issue.

funny thing is that I don't notice it at all when I play a big piano sample in realtime. And on playback, it's only really noticable on drums and perhaps other parts that are highly quantized and/or have a lot of intricate 16th notes.

Doesn't matter how you have MIDI Clock set on receptor, either (like you said).

And I'm on 1.4 Beta. And I am using 128 buffer, synced audio to my EMU1212M card (via SPDIF).

I tested this with both BFD Lite and a drum set in Collosus and the delay seemed about the same for both. And in Collosus, I noticed about the same amount of delay with a bass and piano sound. In all cases, I was comparing the sounds to Audio recorded in SONAR using a comparable or identical plug in on the host.

I hope this amount of delay can be addressed/reduced in a future release...or AT LEAST that this amount of delay will not be present in MIDI/AUDIO over Uniwire.

[Rick@MuseResearch]

I found in Cubase SX a setting for Audio Priority. If was set to High or Very High my tracks would be off by about a 32nd note with Receptor.

[Hybernation]

The lag I am hearing from Receptor is present at all outputs, including the analog one.

I just ran a test using my old Alesis D4 drum module. It plays in PERFECT sync with Battery on the host, while the Receptor track is noticably late, unless I manually compensate on that MIDI Track.
I did this test just to insure that the MIDI latency is not in my M-Audio 8X8 MIDI interface (which is USB, so it would not have surprised me)

I'm not real happy about this amount of MIDI delay. The first night I got my receptor I pulled up a rather dense arrangement and assigned the Bass, Piano and three other instruments to receptor, leaving the Drums on the host (in Battery). I noticed that it was sounding "sloppy" but I thought it was just my playing. Now I know it was not. There IS a noticable MIDI delay happening with Receptor.

I bought this unit PRIMARILY to use in the studio to offload VST tracks to, and now it appears I'm going to ALWAYS have to remember to put that -40 tick compensation on my Receptor tracks, which though viable is (as the original thread-started noted) not an ideal way to work.

Perhaps I'm missing something else here?

[xs2media]

Hi Hyber,

good to hear somebody who has EXACT the same problem too...
as you described, playing in realtime, there is no problem, but on playback there seriously is.
its definitely unworkable for recording in the studio!
I am still trying to solve it, so as soon if i have found a solution, i let you know...
stay tuned!

[xs2media]

I tried Ricks advise by adjusting Cubase SX Audio Priority.
If i lower this setting to Normal or Low, the situation is even getting worse!
So the higher the Audio Priority, the better?

Example
a kick sound without the delay adjustment sounds very sloppy, but when i give the midipart a delay 30 ticks negative adjustment, its getting that tight kick in the face! Just like it should be!

Wonder what it is, adjusting buffer settings is getting very little closer, but its not a solution at all...its MIDI latency here!

UNIWIRE will solve it all? Too good to be true, i think.
(with PDC for all 16 midichannels at the same time, not for each midichannel separate...sounds like this is not gonna be worth the long wait)

We keep our breath...

[DanTimis]

With UniWire you will be able to set the latency. If you are using a small number of channels, and you are not taxing the CPU too much, the latency may be quite low. In a situation where you use many tracks, and many plug-ins, you may have to set the UniWire latency a little higher.

The good news is that UniWire reports the exact amount of delay. If you use Cubase or any other application that has automatic delay compensation, UniWire will be in perfect sync with the other tracks.

If you joined this forum recently, please be aware that UniWire is not shipping yet.

[xs2media]

Thanx, Dan, for your reassurance about this topic.
Hi really do hope with UniWire this issue will be solved.
But then again, i have all the trust in you guys that you will bring out something that is really stable !

thanx again!

PS. you probably can't say exactly when it will come out?
Next week, the week after...?

[Spaceman Sounds]

In the old days when I used C-Lab Creator on the Atari, I had to allways put in negative delays on some tracks for different hardware synths. I still have to do this now, especially when using analog hardware and vsti's together in Nuendo.

Vsti's will allways be bang on time and latency compensated for, external midi hardware is allways going to be delayed. Receptor is basically a pc with a soundcard is it not? So if the receptor sound card latency is say 10 ms, you have all this as well...

1. The delay from your sequencer sending midi.

2. The midi jitter and delay from your midi interface.

3. The processing of the plugin, different ones have different latency in processing and can't be auto compensated as it's triggered by midi from your sequencer.

4. The delay from the sound card in receptor from the sound buffer.

All this adds up, I don't think it's fair to put the blame 100% on Receptor as pc's and mac's for that matter aren't known for their great midi timing. Especially as the audio gets busy. Midex 8 works well with Nuendo for midi jitter, which is your worse enemy as you can't compensate for random timing (Emulator X anyone?).

When I midi up my Korg MS-20 I allways have to put a negative delay to keep it in time with vsti's/audio. It wasn't that noticable before vsti's and sample accurate audio as everything kindof had a delay, but it sticks out bad in todays systems.

Hope this helps.