Hello all, new Rec owner, purchased a Pro Jr in Dec and had Ivory w/IGrand and Pianoteq preinstalled. I have some gigs coming up that I would like to use this on, borrowed some small pa equip to see what I can get out of it. Mackie 6 channel w/ 2 stereo channels, and 2 RCF ART310a's. I have to say, so far, Ivory does not sound as I expected it to. I have a moniter hooked up to Rec, have tried almost every Stnway and I Grand, eq'd a number of different ways, moded
Ivory from top to bottem, tried a number of different eq settings on the mixer, yet I still cannot get a piano sound that I am happy w/at all. The highs sound very nice, but when I get into the meat of the piano, well, lets just say that a rd700sx Roland sounds better. That shouldnt be.
If anyone has any tips on eq, how to set up Rec, or anything in regards to running Ivory/Rec live and getting anything close to what I hear in my recording setup, I will send u cookies.
Now yes, I am a new Rec user, but Im not new to Ivory and have been recording w/this for over a year, so I am used to getting into it and changing things around. Was I expecting too much here? Ive been at it for 2 days, shouldve hit on something by now. Since there are so many users with more exp than me here, it would truly be apptd for any feedback you can give.
Thx, A.
Rec/Ivory live
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- KVRer
- 10 posts since 15 Jan, 2008 from Berkshire, UK
There are two separate issues here.
First - not being happy with the sound of Ivory. I can agree with this myself, as I've played the Ivory Steinway / Bosendorfer / Yamaha patches and wasn't particularly impressed with any of them, quite frankly. I haven't tried Italian Grand yet myself, although I've heard some demos and it sounds okay, but the main problem is that Ivory does not do sympathetic string resonance, so it will never really sound totally authentic. The Roland RD700SX you mention, and the new RD700GX too, do offer sympathetic string resonance, in addition to pedal-down sustain resonance effects, so they can sound richer than Ivory and slightly more authentic. Other hardware instruments that do sympathetic string resonance quite well are the Kawai MP8 and the GEM RealPiano series.
The low range of Ivory's bass notes does sound quite thin. There is generally too much close-mic proximity and hammer noise to the sound, and not enough bottom end fullness, which is not really an EQ fixable thing, but a mic placement weakness in the original samples. When you play a Steinway D in real life, there is a LOT of bottom end in the 30Hz range - it kicks ass! Plus, the lowest strings also will vibrate in sympathy with other midrange chords as you play of course. The sound is fat and magnificant with huge dynamic range between ppp and fff.
If you're happy with the sound in the studio, I presume you're happy with the velocity curves from your 88 note keyboard, because this can be a big issue in getting a satisfactory piano tone to work with, so don't ignore that.
The second major point is the PA system. One of the major challenges is reproducing (artificial digital) piano at an authentic, appropriate SPL, because if the piano sounds unrealistically too loud or too quiet (compared to a real life piano) it will never sound right. If you're familiar with "Fletcher-Munson curves" and the theory behind these you will know what I mean. It's easy to get carried away at a live gig in a large hall with high power PA and end up with a crappy piano sound that you cannot tweak to work.
Even if it sounds just a little bit too loud or too quiet, it will bother you, as a pianist, throughout the entire gig and cause you to over-compensate how you play, thus getting the wrong velocity curve feeling from the keyboard and feel like you're fighting the machine all the time...
The RCF speakers you have borrowed might not be the best fidelity option either - at least for piano. I'm sure they sound fine on commercial CD pop music, and they are a nice powerful bi-amped active system with 300W bass and 50W treble amplifiers, so should have enough SPL headroom for a piano sound. But if you look closely at the spec and design, they have got a vented 10 inch woofer which is already -10dB down at 50Hz and (due to vented design) rolling off at 12dB per octave as frequency decreases. The deep bass output is therefore very weak and does not do justice to a concert grand piano sound. Turning the mixer's bass EQ up will give you unpleasant phasey boominess, not extended low frequency reproduction. I would suggest you try a subwoofer (mixed carefully) to get back what you're missing. I use two custom made subs with a Precision Devices 21 inch woofer in each, and they go down well below 20Hz. Excellent sound quality. Furthermore the two-way design of the RCF leaves the midrange in the crossover region of 1800Hz sounding a bit ropey, so you probably get a slightly nasal / hollow piano tone which is seems to get worse the more you try and EQ it. We've all been there! The best bet is to try a three way speaker system for the main cabs. Find some in a music shop and ask to try them out.
Digitally record the output of the Receptor with yourself playing Ivory on different piano patches and burn these tracks to a CDR to take with you to the shop for speaker / subwoofer demos, and to your gig soundchecks so you can listen to yourself from the audience perspective.
First - not being happy with the sound of Ivory. I can agree with this myself, as I've played the Ivory Steinway / Bosendorfer / Yamaha patches and wasn't particularly impressed with any of them, quite frankly. I haven't tried Italian Grand yet myself, although I've heard some demos and it sounds okay, but the main problem is that Ivory does not do sympathetic string resonance, so it will never really sound totally authentic. The Roland RD700SX you mention, and the new RD700GX too, do offer sympathetic string resonance, in addition to pedal-down sustain resonance effects, so they can sound richer than Ivory and slightly more authentic. Other hardware instruments that do sympathetic string resonance quite well are the Kawai MP8 and the GEM RealPiano series.
The low range of Ivory's bass notes does sound quite thin. There is generally too much close-mic proximity and hammer noise to the sound, and not enough bottom end fullness, which is not really an EQ fixable thing, but a mic placement weakness in the original samples. When you play a Steinway D in real life, there is a LOT of bottom end in the 30Hz range - it kicks ass! Plus, the lowest strings also will vibrate in sympathy with other midrange chords as you play of course. The sound is fat and magnificant with huge dynamic range between ppp and fff.
If you're happy with the sound in the studio, I presume you're happy with the velocity curves from your 88 note keyboard, because this can be a big issue in getting a satisfactory piano tone to work with, so don't ignore that.
The second major point is the PA system. One of the major challenges is reproducing (artificial digital) piano at an authentic, appropriate SPL, because if the piano sounds unrealistically too loud or too quiet (compared to a real life piano) it will never sound right. If you're familiar with "Fletcher-Munson curves" and the theory behind these you will know what I mean. It's easy to get carried away at a live gig in a large hall with high power PA and end up with a crappy piano sound that you cannot tweak to work.
Even if it sounds just a little bit too loud or too quiet, it will bother you, as a pianist, throughout the entire gig and cause you to over-compensate how you play, thus getting the wrong velocity curve feeling from the keyboard and feel like you're fighting the machine all the time...
The RCF speakers you have borrowed might not be the best fidelity option either - at least for piano. I'm sure they sound fine on commercial CD pop music, and they are a nice powerful bi-amped active system with 300W bass and 50W treble amplifiers, so should have enough SPL headroom for a piano sound. But if you look closely at the spec and design, they have got a vented 10 inch woofer which is already -10dB down at 50Hz and (due to vented design) rolling off at 12dB per octave as frequency decreases. The deep bass output is therefore very weak and does not do justice to a concert grand piano sound. Turning the mixer's bass EQ up will give you unpleasant phasey boominess, not extended low frequency reproduction. I would suggest you try a subwoofer (mixed carefully) to get back what you're missing. I use two custom made subs with a Precision Devices 21 inch woofer in each, and they go down well below 20Hz. Excellent sound quality. Furthermore the two-way design of the RCF leaves the midrange in the crossover region of 1800Hz sounding a bit ropey, so you probably get a slightly nasal / hollow piano tone which is seems to get worse the more you try and EQ it. We've all been there! The best bet is to try a three way speaker system for the main cabs. Find some in a music shop and ask to try them out.
Digitally record the output of the Receptor with yourself playing Ivory on different piano patches and burn these tracks to a CDR to take with you to the shop for speaker / subwoofer demos, and to your gig soundchecks so you can listen to yourself from the audience perspective.
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- KVRist
- 387 posts since 24 Aug, 2004
How does Pianoteq sound through your live amplification system?ADino wrote:Hello all, new Rec owner, purchased a Pro Jr in Dec and had Ivory w/IGrand and Pianoteq preinstalled. I have some gigs coming up that I would like to use this on, borrowed some small pa equip to see what I can get out of it. Mackie 6 channel w/ 2 stereo channels, and 2 RCF ART310a's. I have to say, so far, Ivory does not sound as I expected it to. I have a moniter hooked up to Rec, have tried almost every Stnway and I Grand, eq'd a number of different ways, moded
Ivory from top to bottem, tried a number of different eq settings on the mixer, yet I still cannot get a piano sound that I am happy w/at all. The highs sound very nice, but when I get into the meat of the piano, well, lets just say that a rd700sx Roland sounds better. That shouldnt be.
If anyone has any tips on eq, how to set up Rec, or anything in regards to running Ivory/Rec live and getting anything close to what I hear in my recording setup, I will send u cookies.
Now yes, I am a new Rec user, but Im not new to Ivory and have been recording w/this for over a year, so I am used to getting into it and changing things around. Was I expecting too much here? Ive been at it for 2 days, shouldve hit on something by now. Since there are so many users with more exp than me here, it would truly be apptd for any feedback you can give.
Thx, A.
I am unfamiliar with those speakers, but agree with the previous poster about the importance of that part of your set up.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 65 posts since 18 Dec, 2006 from NE US
Thks for the wonderful post UK...On the rcf's your description is spot on, especially about the nasal mids, but I find most small speakers to have the same problem...as for a sub, thats a great idea, but most times I find I have to be light...I find Ivory to be a much better alternative to a 700 sx or Gem. I can feel the initial touch of the wood w/Ivory, something that no dp has given me. After playing w/Ivory for much of 2 days straight, I think I am getting close to an acceptable live sound w/the Rec. I didnt think the Rec fx would default on, but they were, and 2 of the same yet, which really colored the sound. Ive been working w/a Stnway D10 as that was the sample that was closest at first. The settings within Ivory may be great for studio, but totally different for live use. On a show last week I got to use a 9 ft Stway, very nice, I dont think anyone can reproduce that...I just read that Stway has endorsed a Garritan sampled Stway..I will have to hear this. Have to mention, in the studio, I have to work w/Ivory to get what I want out of it..theres never been free lunch...
I find that with any dp, the louder the vol gets w/a group, the thinner the dp piano patch gets, no matter the amplification. Ive tried this on several gigs (freelance) using diff Rolands including 700sx, Yamaha, Kurtz..and its always the same. I never intended to use Ivory for loud gigs, but I feel it is very doable in duo to quintet situations.
I never intended to replace a Stway, that is not possible, I simply want to feel more comfortable playing w/out the annoyance of always hating a portion of a DP, whether its the feel or sound, this octave or that. The vol always changes the timber, so while u may be happy w/a sample at a low vol, that doesnt mean you'll be happy w/it when the vol goes up..
I am going to try to create a bank of 2 or 3 moded Stways, then start working on the Italian grand, as I was rather disappointed w/its initial sound live. 2 or 3 of each as then I will have more of a choice depending on the accoustics of the situation.
I also have to take into account the Rec itself...how faithful does it reproduce the samples. I havent owned it long enough to know or compare so that will come w/working w/it. 1 thing I know is that both Muse and certain music stores have raved about how well Ivory works w/the Receptor...that may be so in their situations, but it didnt come w/out a lot of work on someones part. Mabey Muse should put out an addition to the manuel on dealing w/samples on the Rec in live situations, recommended speaker setups, etc., as I would really like to see and hear what they have done to get such a great live sound from Ivory/Rec. I dont mean performance wise, so far, nary a glitch.
Phil, Pianoteq is quite interesting, I havent run it thru a sound system. I'll get to it. One thing I notice on the phones running it w/ Rec, is that I feel just a hint of latency compared to none at all w/Ivory. For a comparison, 1 of my sons does classical piano, he feels that it blows Ivory away for that idiom, while I do a lot of jazz and prefer Ivory, so each has its place depending on your preference.
Thanks again UK, your post is extremely helpful.
A.
I find that with any dp, the louder the vol gets w/a group, the thinner the dp piano patch gets, no matter the amplification. Ive tried this on several gigs (freelance) using diff Rolands including 700sx, Yamaha, Kurtz..and its always the same. I never intended to use Ivory for loud gigs, but I feel it is very doable in duo to quintet situations.
I never intended to replace a Stway, that is not possible, I simply want to feel more comfortable playing w/out the annoyance of always hating a portion of a DP, whether its the feel or sound, this octave or that. The vol always changes the timber, so while u may be happy w/a sample at a low vol, that doesnt mean you'll be happy w/it when the vol goes up..
I am going to try to create a bank of 2 or 3 moded Stways, then start working on the Italian grand, as I was rather disappointed w/its initial sound live. 2 or 3 of each as then I will have more of a choice depending on the accoustics of the situation.
I also have to take into account the Rec itself...how faithful does it reproduce the samples. I havent owned it long enough to know or compare so that will come w/working w/it. 1 thing I know is that both Muse and certain music stores have raved about how well Ivory works w/the Receptor...that may be so in their situations, but it didnt come w/out a lot of work on someones part. Mabey Muse should put out an addition to the manuel on dealing w/samples on the Rec in live situations, recommended speaker setups, etc., as I would really like to see and hear what they have done to get such a great live sound from Ivory/Rec. I dont mean performance wise, so far, nary a glitch.
Phil, Pianoteq is quite interesting, I havent run it thru a sound system. I'll get to it. One thing I notice on the phones running it w/ Rec, is that I feel just a hint of latency compared to none at all w/Ivory. For a comparison, 1 of my sons does classical piano, he feels that it blows Ivory away for that idiom, while I do a lot of jazz and prefer Ivory, so each has its place depending on your preference.
Thanks again UK, your post is extremely helpful.
A.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 65 posts since 18 Dec, 2006 from NE US
I must say, where I thought I was getting close to a decent Ivory sound w/the RCF's, after resting my ears for a day or so, then trying these again..these are not what Im looking for...UK's post on the eq'ing w/them is correct...the more I work w/them, the worse they sound....
I was wondering about trying small bass speakers, on quite a few gigs I do, bass players show up w/these very small cabs that sound wonderful, so Im wondering if I could get the depth needed for Ivory utilizing these....worth a shot..
Im afraid this is going to take awhile....dontcha just wish u could plug in, turn on and things would sound wonderful? Actually, I generally wish for warm sunny beach's...
Again, thx for your input..
A.
I was wondering about trying small bass speakers, on quite a few gigs I do, bass players show up w/these very small cabs that sound wonderful, so Im wondering if I could get the depth needed for Ivory utilizing these....worth a shot..
Im afraid this is going to take awhile....dontcha just wish u could plug in, turn on and things would sound wonderful? Actually, I generally wish for warm sunny beach's...
Again, thx for your input..
A.