Questioning the Marketing of Receptor

[engineerjoel]

I don't own nor have I ever played a receptor. Though this piece of gear is probably the primary piece of gear I'd like to use for my live keyboard setup.

I have spent hours upon hours reviewing any-and-all video tutorials and testimonials for the Receptor. What I come away with is "....how GREAT this unit sound!" I've seen lots of video's showing high-profile keyboardist showing off their playing skills and drooling over various favorite softsynths. But they never really go into any depth to the performance/response/reaction/latency/power issues with Receptor. Yea, they're right. 99% of all the softsynths do sound great. I have invested several thousands of dollars in multiple softsynth bundles therefore I'm not challenging the sonic's of these VI's.

What I'm confused about is the way the Receptor is being marketed performance wise. They (MUSE) seem to be pushing the sonic quality of VI"s and co-marketing all the Premium and supported plug-ins (products/apps that they (MUSE) do not build) rather than the disclosing or informing us (the end-user) of how well the Receptor performs (or out performs) against the power of a fully loaded MacPro or MacBook Pro or any other industry standard (recognized) computer.

I'm currently running the latest fully loaded MacBook Pro with Native Instrument's KORE 2 has the host program. I"m able to stack up to 7 VI"s per setup with an output latency setting of 5 ms without any signal degration or computer hickups or stuck midi notes, etc.... But, yes, if I want to add an 8th plugin, I have to reset the output latency to a higher level such as 11 to 21 ms. And or course, the more plugin's I add the higher the output latency I have to reset in order to keep the system from freezing up. But, as along as I keep my Plugins to 7 or less, I can keep the output latency at 5 ms.

I assume that Receptor can beat 5 ms latency with no problem plus it will allow me to add many more plugins with no performance/latency issues at all. Is this correct ?????? I'd love to be able to run multiple instances of Omnisphere, Atmosphere, OPX Pros, Symphonic Orchestra, Kontact 3 Colossus Bosendorfer 290 all at the same time. I'm sure that Receptor can handle this with no problem?????

I'd love to see video tutorial of a side-by-side direct comparison (performance shootout) between Receptor and a MacBook Pro.

Hopefully I'll get a fully unbiased answer.

[Jeremy_NSL]

Hi,

Have you looked at the comparison chart here:
http://www.museresearch.com/receptor2.php
(click the compare tab)

It shows the hardware inside each Receptor. Compare that with what's inside your Macbook and you pretty much have your answer.

[engineerjoel]

Hey Jeremy,

Thanks for the reply and the comparison link. Though, I'm not 100% sure if I'm understanding the chart fully.

Does the chart mean that a MacBook Pro (2.16 Ghz Core Duo with 2 Gig Ram) is just about as equal in power has a Receptor 2 Pro?

Anyway, I'm interested in real live performance performance details such as how many instances of Omnisphere and Atmosphere can run on the at the same time on Receptor vs on a standard computer before performance and latency issues began to popup. Or Maybe, Latency is not even an issue with Receptor.... not matter the plug-in load.

[Bryan@MuseResearch]

Hey Jeremy,

Thanks for the reply and the comparison link. Though, I'm not 100% sure if I'm understanding the chart fully.

Does the chart mean that a MacBook Pro (2.16 Ghz Core Duo with 2 Gig Ram) is just about as equal in power has a Receptor 2 Pro?

Anyway, I'm interested in real live performance performance details such as how many instances of Omnisphere and Atmosphere can run on the at the same time on Receptor vs on a standard computer before performance and latency issues began to popup. Or Maybe, Latency is not even an issue with Receptor.... not matter the plug-in load.

Hi Engineerjoel

You bring up a really interesting point, and that is "who is Receptor intended for, and what benefits does it provide that are unique?". This is a subject that we spend a lot of time discussing internally, because we need to stay very focussed in our marketing and try to make our messaging as clear as possible.

First off, the market for synthesizers is huge. I'd be willing to wager that Yamaha, Roland, and Korg sell more workstations than all of the virtual instrument companies combined by a large margin.. and that's not even including all the inexpensive instruments sold through Costco, WalMart and BestBuy. Why do these instruments continue to sell so well, even though we all know that a 2MB, or 12MB, or even 80MB super-deluxe isn't-that-amazing piano simply can't compete with the Akoustik Pianos, Ivorys, Arts VIstas or even Pianoteqs and TruePianos of the world.

The reason why these instruments still sell in such vast numbers is because people want / need / and desire the ability to JUST PLAY. You never see latency being mentioned in any of these instruments, even though they are without a doubt subject to latency and that latency can vary with how hard the instrument is pushed. You turn them on, you load a sound, you play. Many of the customers for traditional dedicated synths are NOT particularly computer savvy, and the thought of taking an expensive MacBook Pro to a gig and having all the dangly bits hanging off the ports while they perform would never occur to them, and would be too intimidating even if they did. That kind of laptop solution is WAY outside most player's comfort zone, including me.

However, in the high end of the music player realm, hardware samplers and rack mount synths have been absolutely devastated by the onslaught of virtual instrument technology. And now that you can't really buy dedicated samplers any more, (and certainly none that offer gigabytes of sample libraries), you find that many customers are unable to do what they have been used to doing for ages: play live using sampled sounds using a device that acts like a music instrument.

So in a nutshell, we've tried to make Receptor as much of a music instrument as possible, and as far away from being perceived as a dedicated computer in a road-ready rack-mount case as much as possible. Some might not agree with this approach, but the fact is that being able to play music without having to worry about your gear is really what we are aiming for. As a result, we speak to customers in terms that they are likely to be the ones that are most interesting to them, and for all of those customers who own Tritons and Motifs and K2600s, the first revelation you have when you enter the world of virtual instruments is that they SOUND so much better than what gets crammed into those little ROM chips. Don't get me wrong, for many people those sounds are just fine, but just as even the best organ plug-in cannot replace a real B3, sample rate converted / looped and heavily effected ROM based sounds simply to not hold up under scrutiny when compared to streaming 24-bit sample libraries that are dozens of gigabytes in size.

Most of the customers who get interested in Receptor do so because they are looking for better sounds, or they are familiar with plugins and they want a better way to run them either live, in the pit, or in the studio. As such, we need Receptor to sound great, be super reliable, be really rugged, and perform like the device it is likely replacing: a dedicated synth or sampler. We do emphasize that Receptor has super low latency, but we don't really get into the "how many VSTs you can run at one time" argument because it is an amazingly complex argument... for example, I know a customer who runs 57 instantiations of Guitar Rig on a Rev A (!) Receptor! On hearing this you might ask why (glitchless transition from one patch to another as well as the ability to combine sounds) and then you might ask how (he uses snapshots). Given that few people use their Macbooks to play guitar at a gig in the first place, the discussion quickly becomes meaningless if we emphasize plugin count in our marketing.

We do mention some benchmarks that are important to players - like you can run Ivory at 32-sample buffers at 96kHz on Receptor 2 PROs. But the discussion about how many plugins you can have loaded at once is complex and easy to distort. For example, does that mean loaded (which depends on RAM) or playing (which depends on CPU, RAM, and HDD)? If you state a "playing" spec, what exactly are you playing (polyphony is the key)? And if you are playing, what velocities are you playing? (since each velocity is a different sample, which taxes HD and RAM bandwidth)? And of course there are efficient plugins, and not so efficient plugins, and the very quickly the task of trying to establish the greatness of your product compared with other alternatives becomes a very slippery slope indeed. I remember one particularly well respected British piano player who was using a Mac desktop machine to run Ivory. They were getting some clicks and pops, and our agent in the UK, Alan, brought by a Rev B Receptor with Ivory on it. They put it in his rack, hooked it up, turned it on, and he played. He played and played and played and simply would not believe that this little rack mount box could outperform the computer he was using. So not only did it sound great (the plugin) but it played great (the latency, the polyphony, the general sense that you were playing an instrument and not "using a computer")

That is one of the main reasons we let the artists speak about Receptor. These folks depend on their gear for their livelihood. They tour, they gig, they hop from studio to studio, they perform night after night. They are an incredibly demanding segment of the market. So when Chick, Herbie, The Stones, The Boss, John Mayer, Paul McCartney, Billy Joel, Jordan Rudess, Coldplay, and dozens of others of the top bands and artists in the world all choose to run their plug-ins on Receptor, I think that says a lot. And although they'd never let us use the phrase in an advert, "If Receptor is good enough for U2, isn't it good enough for you, too?"

Yikes... if that isn't a clue that its time to sign off I don't know what is.

Cheers

Groovology

[engineerjoel]

Hey Groovology,

Excellent reply. All well taken and good points.

I guess what I'm really wanting to hear from Receptor users is (not how Great Receptor sounds...i.e. referring the the plugins) but rather how they are using the Receptor in a live show and what how many plugin instances are they able to intiate before the unit begins to moan and groan. Apparently, there is some sort of performance short-fall because many artist say that they are using multiple Receptors in there live setup.

Your reply telling me that you knew of someone who intiated 57 instances of Guitar Rig 3 is the kind of info that needs to be disclosed. If true, then that's good stuff for the public to know. It would be great to get an video interview with that person demonstrating this.

This type of info shows the "power" of Receptor vs a laptop. Why not go one step further and make a video comparing the MacBook Pro and how many instances of Guitar Rig 3 it can open and perform well before it snap/crackle/pop and freeze up.

Yes, I realize that VI plugin's come in different effecientcies as some are much more CPU hungry than others and this affects how plugins can be layered and performed across the keyboard without any performance issues. It would be nice to see some type of chart depicting this type of information.

Anyway, I guess I just need to reserve a Demo of a Receptor and put it through the test. Hopefully, there are Receptor Demo units that have all Receptor Quilified plugins installed to demo.

later.

[buscemi]

I also think that the drum-trigger performance aspect should be more publicized as it is supposed to be great for that. The "Freddy" or whatever it was seems to have gone the way of the buffalo but it was indeed a great advertisement for using an edrum set with Receptor. Videos showing performance of things like that and the things requested above would go a long way for both prospective and current customers.

[Bryan@MuseResearch]

Hey Groovology,

Excellent reply. All well taken and good points.

I guess what I'm really wanting to hear from Receptor users is (not how Great Receptor sounds...i.e. referring the the plugins) but rather how they are using the Receptor in a live show and what how many plugin instances are they able to intiate before the unit begins to moan and groan. Apparently, there is some sort of performance short-fall because many artist say that they are using multiple Receptors in there live setup.

Your reply telling me that you knew of someone who intiated 57 instances of Guitar Rig 3 is the kind of info that needs to be disclosed. If true, then that's good stuff for the public to know. It would be great to get an video interview with that person demonstrating this.

This type of info shows the "power" of Receptor vs a laptop. Why not go one step further and make a video comparing the MacBook Pro and how many instances of Guitar Rig 3 it can open and perform well before it snap/crackle/pop and freeze up.

Yes, I realize that VI plugin's come in different effecientcies as some are much more CPU hungry than others and this affects how plugins can be layered and performed across the keyboard without any performance issues. It would be nice to see some type of chart depicting this type of information.

Anyway, I guess I just need to reserve a Demo of a Receptor and put it through the test. Hopefully, there are Receptor Demo units that have all Receptor Quilified plugins installed to demo.

later.

But don't you see that is an incredibly hard thing to answer because everyone's gig is different? There are people using just one instantiation - like Ivory - but they playing the crap out of it. There are broadway shows doing huge orchestration stuff using big samplers. There are 80's bands doing nothing but organ, synth, and electric pianos. And when you usher in the notion of doing even a little bit of clever programming, you quickly get to the point of where every situation is different and comparison are incredibly difficult, if not completely meaningless.

And your comment about multiple units is not quite correct... almost every player who has two (or more) Receptors has them because they are a high-end pro who is using one as a main, and one as a backup. Very very few bands who are of a professional level ever tour without backups of darn near everything, and for good reason... if you pay $100 for a ticket to a show, you want to hear something great, and not have parts missing because an amp broke, or a mixer failed, or a keyboard was toast. And that's not just Receptor, I've seen multiple Motifs, Triton, Kurzweils, E-MUs, you name them... if your world centers around putting on a great show, you owe it to your audience to be prepared for every contingency.

I am really open to any suggestions of meaningful comparisons we can publish for customers, but comparisons with computers are incredibly hard. What OS? What host? What drive? What else is on the computer (more software->fuller drive-> more fragmenting -> poorer disc performance in many computers). In our experience, it really opens up a can of worms that benefits few in the end, at least in our experience.

To be perfectly honest, the best demo is playing Receptor, feeling how it responds, hearing how it sounds. Then have someone show you how you can mold the system to your particular case with the various features in Receptor that make it unique. Then, once you do this you'll understand what we are trying to do, and you'll likely find yourself not thinking about polyphony or latency or CPU load and focussing on what we all really want to do... make some great music.

Thanks for your comments... a worthwhile discussion indeed.

Cheers

Groovology

[gizmostatic]

The real key to buying/owning a Receptor is to make sure that the VST instruments you want to run actually run on the Receptor. Forget the hype .. if it doesn't do what you want it to do in terms of running the plug-ins you want, you won't be happy.

I bought the Arturia suite of synths, thinking it would run. People on this board found ways of getting around Muse's lack of synchrosoft protection support to get the stuff running, and posted detailed instructions on this list. Unfortunately for me, the instructions were tailored to an installer of Arturia stuff that was prior to the versions I got, so I couldn't do it. So far, no way to install those plugin-ins still. It's been well over a year now.

Then, I just recently bought 'First Call Horns', KP2 version, which plugorama said is 'user installable' via direct install. Again, unfortunately for me, it's only user installable if you bought a new Receptor 2 that's running the 1.8 OS. No details as to if or when 1.8 will be available, if ever, for 'old' receptor hardware users.

I've spent $1000+ on software I expected to be able to use on the Receptor, only to be foiled by technicalities, or waited over a year to run Native Instruments stuff before they supported it. Whether or not it's Muse's fault or even within their control is moot .. bottom line, I can't run those plugs, and it cost me.

On the other hand, I have available to me some things that I would NEVER have on stage, due to the fact that I could never effectively use a laptop on 90% of my gigs. Playing B4II, Kontakt 3, OPX, MiniMonsta has been incredible, and makes it worth owning the Receptor for me.

I won't be buying the next generation, and doubtful I'll give Muse a second look, because I've been able to realize what the Receptor is and is limited to FOR MY OWN PURPOSE, and as far as I'm concerned, now that I've learned what it does and doesn't do, it simply is what it is, which is still of value to me.

DON'T think it'll solve all your problems, research THOROUGHLY what it's capable of doing, and BE SURE to get 100% confirmation that it'll run what you want it to, and not what you think it should, and it's a good solution. Take that approach and it'll save you lots of disappointment and consternation, and have something in your rig that adds a lot of value and enjoyment.

[fas1piano]

the above stories shows two things:

- famous artists have keyboard techs to cope with technicalities

- if you are not famous, you will do it yourself. then you need every info available on a product you are going to buy

i really missed information on

- scene change power, meaning the ability to switch on and off instruments and

- ability to change patches without resorting to super complicated program change nightmares,

- the vst compatibility issue for my favorite vsts

- also compatibility with midi controllers and midi routing in general and

- tap tempo

- performance features (showing patches)

i knew it was not going to be super-easy - but i could not get the information i wanted about receptor.

so i ended up with a thinkpad, a multiface (dangling connectors ) and brainspawn forte. i will not do my setup again - i am as much locked into that as any yamaha or kurzweil person who once managed to be on top of their particular workstations.

i think the muse box concept is great though - no rack! so you get mobility which is very important today. can't you guys get together with brainspawn and work something out ?

cheers
f

[Bryan@MuseResearch]

I also think that the drum-trigger performance aspect should be more publicized as it is supposed to be great for that. The "Freddy" or whatever it was seems to have gone the way of the buffalo but it was indeed a great advertisement for using an edrum set with Receptor. Videos showing performance of things like that and the things requested above would go a long way for both prospective and current customers.

Stay tuned for more in this regard!

Groovology

[buscemi]

Thanks, I get enough out of my Receptor now but to hook up the V-Drum set that is literally a few feet away from it just makes sense. I was just looking up the "Freddy" or whatever it was but couldn't find much info and gave up. Can't wait to see what you have up your sleeve.

Oh yeah, and since I have your attention - um..... AMPLITUBE PLEASE! Sorry for shouting but it has been a long time coming, and you guys preinstall it. Also Addicitive 1.1.1 would be really nice sometime soon.

[Bryan@MuseResearch]

Thanks, I get enough out of my Receptor now but to hook up the V-Drum set that is literally a few feet away from it just makes sense. I was just looking up the "Freddy" or whatever it was but couldn't find much info and gave up. Can't wait to see what you have up your sleeve.

Oh yeah, and since I have your attention - um..... AMPLITUBE PLEASE! Sorry for shouting but it has been a long time coming, and you guys preinstall it. Also Addicitive 1.1.1 would be really nice sometime soon.

Request noted!

Groovology

[buscemi]

Sorry to derail but I got scared a bit by another comment that indicated the Rev C folks might not be able to get 1.8 ever? Is that true? If not, I won't be able to get that AD 1.1.1 installer any time soon.

[PhilMuller]

IMHO - most musicians I know go through their 200+ plugins (freebies, demos and premiums) and umpteen million patches. Then in the end they pick their top 10 to use on stage. I only use 1 - 5 at any one time. These plugins had better perform flawlessly and the hardware had better not crash on stage… FOR ANY REASON! It had better not hiccup, miss a beat, sneeze, click, change scenes or programs slowly or incorrectly, or do anything other than perform flawlessly and contribute to the performance. If this would happen to me, I would probably through the unit in the garbage and starting looking for a new solution. In the meantime, I would settle for something less elaborate until the perfect solution becomes available. Unfortunately for us mere mortals, the technology is still not there to provide us with our dream of the ultimate synth. I tried the Windows approach… in studio it is OK, but Live… forget it! I have friends who have tried the MacBook Pro approach… it is far better than Windows as I am told, but there are still reported problems. I have obviously tried the Receptor approach and there are infrequent problems with glitches and as we all know by now not all plugins work. Push the Receptor to the limit and you get more problems. Understand the limitations of the Receptor and you can be a happy camper and get down to the business of music. I say we spend too much time pushing the technical envelope. After all, it is about music, is it not? ...and... Receptor is very musical. This should be your main reason to buy it.

In my opinion, of the three choices, the Receptor is the most stable providing that you understand its limitations and use it accordingly.

[mwgilbert]

IUnderstand the limitations of the Receptor and you can be a happy camper and get down to the business of music. I say we spend too much time pushing the technical envelope. After all, it is about music, is it not? ...and... Receptor is very musical. This should be your main reason to buy it.

The Receptor, in its various incarnations, is an excellent piece of engineering, and sounds as good as advertised.

The catch is understanding the limitations, or the balance of benefits and limitations, before you buy one.

I am not sure it is possible to do this with the marketing information available.

Having one to work with, combined with the exchange of information and ideas between users (including this forum), yields much more direct information.

It is about music. The technical envelope, however, contributes to the degree of musicality and "usefulness", and that depends on the process that each musician uses; one size most definitely does not fit all...

I never play live. Never. I just don't. So for me, the Receptor has to be of value in a studio situation, which is different from a performance situation.

Each performer has slightly different needs; each studio composer does as well.

The Receptor is marketed somewhat generally, emphasizing its advantages and glossing over its weaknesses. This is basically how all vendors market all products, IMHO.

Long story short: knowing what I do now, I would probably not buy a Receptor for my specific needs. The big advantages for me - the ability to offload processing from my DAW, without sacrificing musicality or workflow. The big disadvantages for me - all the VST compatibility issues, which sacrifice musicality and workflow, at least as they are defined in my context of making music.

This by no means suggests the value of Receptor to your needs.

Perhaps had I found this forum sooner, I would have had a better idea of how to interpret the marketing info, using the aggregated filter of many users' experiences.

The issue is not whether the Receptor is "good" or "bad"; as I said at the top, it is clearly an excellent piece of engineering, and sounds as good as advertised. On that scale, it is emphatically "good".

The issue is whether or not it meets one's needs, given that all our needs are different even though some may be similar, and how easy or not it is to determine all of this prior to making a purchase.

I should say that Muse is a relatively small company, and probably responds to people with sales, support, and technical info as well or better than most small companies. They need to sell Receptors, and to "evolve" Receptors to sell more Receptors. Receptors meet some needs really well; the number of major music acts who tour with one or more is significant and increasing. As a decidedly non-major, who does not tour, I am not positioned, as it were, to reap the same benefits in the course of my work.

-MWG

http://www.mwgilbert.com/
http://www.myspace.com/michaelwilliamgilbert