mix down problem

[johnjaypl]

I mix the same very simple setup twice.

One sequence goes into one rack

The rack has a coupe of midiin- midiout vsts and then a minimogue.

The first time I mix down the vsts in front of the minimogue are turned off. Everything works fine.

The second time I mix down the vsts berfore the minimogue are turned on. Their is silience in the output file. Everything sounds fine when I play the track in mulab.

Any ideas? There's not much changing between mixdowns. A couple of buttons to turn on the vsts and a new file name.

John

[johnjaypl]

Ok, I cleaned up my project and made it as simple as I can. One track, three vsts. A midi sequence going to midiSimpleLFO to midiExactDelay to miniMogue.

If midiSimpleLFO and midiExactDelay are turned off (the green button on the upper left of each module goes off) then the track plays fine and the mixdown (between theloop) is fine.

If midiSimpleLFO and midiExactDelay are turnen on (the green button is lit) then the track plays fine and the mixdown (between the loop) is only silience.

Here's the MULAB session:
http://johnjayplatko.com/Documents/mula ... .MuSession

Here's the good mixdown
http://johnjayplatko.com/Documents/mulabnobug.Wav

Here's the bad mixdown
http://johnjayplatko.com/Documents/Mulabbug.Wav

And oh yes, please send my free unlimited license for finding the bug.

Thanks,

John

[MuTools]

Is this using MU.LAB 3?

What if you replace Minimogue by Synthia?

[johnjaypl]

Is this using MU.LAB 3?

What if you replace Minimogue by Synthia?

I'm using 2.7

I'll give Synthia a try.

[johnjaypl]

I get the same result with Synthia.

The only difference is clicking on and off the LFO and Delay vsts. With them on I get silence in the mixdown, with them off it works. But I can play them fine off or on.

[MuTools]

Can you please load your session into MU.LAB 3 and see how it goes there.

You can download the latest MU.LAB 3 test version from http://www.mutools.com/mulab/azalea

[johnjaypl]

Can you please load your session into MU.LAB 3 and see how it goes there.

You can download the latest MU.LAB 3 test version from http://www.mutools.com/mulab/azalea

Just tried it and it works in MU.LAB 3

John

[MuTools]

John,

Please continue using MU.LAB 3.

I now remember that some time ago there indeed was some mixdown issue in M2x when using midi plugs, caused by some ambiguity in the vst sdk. That issue has been resolved in M3.

I appreciate your commitment in narrowing this down and since the issue was not yet listed on the MU.LAB known issues page, i'll give you a free upgrade to MU.LAB 3 XT once it's pre-released. Please email your full name + country to

[johnjaypl]

John,

Please continue using MU.LAB 3.

I now remember that some time ago there indeed was some mixdown issue in M2x when using midi plugs, caused by some ambiguity in the vst sdk. That issue has been resolved in M3.

I appreciate your commitment in narrowing this down and since the issue was not yet listed on the MU.LAB known issues page, i'll give you a free upgrade to MU.LAB 3 XT once it's pre-released. Please email your full name + country to

Thanks, I'll send you my info.

*****************************************************
(Edit: After looking at the MU.LAB 3 XT feature list I'm not at all sure that you offer is fair. The mulab web site states:

Yep, we want MU.LAB to be rock solid!

And so when you can find a new repeatable bug and report us step-by-step how to repeat it, then we'll be happy to give you a MU.LAB Unlimited User License for free! Just ask for it!

Mu.LAB 3 XT seems far from unlimited. Perhaps I don't understand the new features of Mu.LAB 3 to appreciate it but the main features that matter to me are 32 bit mix down and I suppose unlimited tracks although I suspect 8 would be enough for me. I don't know what multi channel re-wire is, I'll look into it. Also, will Mulab continue to support 2.x along with 3.x product. Does an unlimited 2.7 license work for 3.0? I'm just trying to understand how the unlimited offer got limited) end of edit
****************************************************************

Back to the problem:

I'm not convinced that MU.LAB 3. doesn't still have some issues around the same/similir problem. It's better to be sure and the issue is more subtle but I'm pretty sure, almost convinced, but I'll so some more testing.

The problem is how the timing of midi sequences get played in the final mixdown.

I start with the same set-up that I posted which failed in 2.7

One track, three vsts. A midi sequence going to midiSimpleLFO to midiExactDelay to miniMogue.

I add a Pan-Tool vst after the minimogue so I can hard pan the original bank to the right channel.


Now I add a new track and rack. The new tack plays a copy of the exact same midi sequence. (I believe I used Control C not Shift Control C to make the copy) The rack playing this new track has a minimogue and a Pan-Tool. This rack is set to pan hard left.

By looking at the stero audio output I can measure the delay added by MiniExactDelay after the mixdown.

Now if I mix down with either track playing but not both, as far as I can tell, I get the correct results.

But if I mix down with both tracks playing I don't believe I get the correct timing of the notes. Comparing the tracks that were mixed down one at a time to the mix down of both at the same time shows this.

The vsts that woudn't mix down in MU.LAB 2.7 add delay to midi notes and this seems to be where things go wrong. The essence of the problem that I see in MU.LAB 3.0 is that the delays added by the vst are, often missing but not completely missing in the mixdown when both tracks are mixed down at the same time.

I can post my session if you're interested.

John

[MuTools]

(Edit: After looking at the MU.LAB 3 XT feature list I'm not at all sure that you offer is fair. The mulab web site states:

Yep, we want MU.LAB to be rock solid!

And so when you can find a new repeatable bug and report us step-by-step how to repeat it, then we'll be happy to give you a MU.LAB Unlimited User License for free! Just ask for it!

Mu.LAB 3 XT seems far from unlimited. Perhaps I don't understand the new features of Mu.LAB 3 to appreciate it but the main features that matter to me are 32 bit mix down and I suppose unlimited tracks although I suspect 8 would be enough for me. I don't know what multi channel re-wire is, I'll look into it. Also, will Mulab continue to support 2.x along with 3.x product. Does an unlimited 2.7 license work for 3.0? I'm just trying to understand how the unlimited offer got limited) end of edit

Strictly:

I don't think i did anything unfair. Although the mentioned issue was already resolved (cfr it was gone in MU.LAB 3 when you tried it), i was convinced you deserved a free MU.LAB Unlimited User License because during the M3 dev cycle i forgot to mention that MU.LAB 2.7 issue on the website. So you couldn't know it was already resolved and so you were right asking for your MU.LAB 2.7 Unlimited User License, cfr the message on mutools.com. But as you switched to MU.LAB 3, instead of sending you a MU.LAB 2.7 Unlimited User License, i sent you a MU.LAB XT License, as MU.LAB 2.7 only has a couple of days (hours) to go. Please don't make the assumption that a MU.LAB 2.7 Unlimited User License which was given for free is automatically translated into a free MU.LAB 3.0 UL User License, this is not mentioned anywhere. If you want i'll send you a MU.LAB 2.7 Unlimted User License, so the promise is 'exactly' fulfilled, no problem. And you can keep your MU.LAB 3 XT User License too, no problem.

Relaxed:

John, i do appreciate your intense usage of MU.LAB and the fact that you report any issues here. You'll get your MU.LAB 3 UL User License too. Lets avoid any confusion/discussion about this. I hope you'll have a lot of musical joy with MU.LAB 3, and if you encounter a bug or serious bottleneck please keep on reporting them via this forum or via email.

Cheers,

Jo

[MuTools]

Back to the problem:

I'm not convinced that MU.LAB 3. doesn't still have some issues around the same/similir problem. It's better to be sure and the issue is more subtle but I'm pretty sure, almost convinced, but I'll so some more testing.

The problem is how the timing of midi sequences get played in the final mixdown.

I start with the same set-up that I posted which failed in 2.7

One track, three vsts. A midi sequence going to midiSimpleLFO to midiExactDelay to miniMogue.

I add a Pan-Tool vst after the minimogue so I can hard pan the original bank to the right channel.


Now I add a new track and rack. The new tack plays a copy of the exact same midi sequence. (I believe I used Control C not Shift Control C to make the copy) The rack playing this new track has a minimogue and a Pan-Tool. This rack is set to pan hard left.

By looking at the stero audio output I can measure the delay added by MiniExactDelay after the mixdown.

Now if I mix down with either track playing but not both, as far as I can tell, I get the correct results.

But if I mix down with both tracks playing I don't believe I get the correct timing of the notes. Comparing the tracks that were mixed down one at a time to the mix down of both at the same time shows this.

The vsts that woudn't mix down in MU.LAB 2.7 add delay to midi notes and this seems to be where things go wrong. The essence of the problem that I see in MU.LAB 3.0 is that the delays added by the vst are, often missing but not completely missing in the mixdown when both tracks are mixed down at the same time.

I can post my session if you're interested.

I did some tests in M3 using MidiExactDelay and did not notice anything wrong, nor while playing nor while mixing down, timing was perfect.

I noticed in your original session that you were using an MIDI LFO. Maybe that's something which causes confusion?

If you're convinced there is something wrong in MU.LAB then could you please narrow down the problem as much as possible so it's 100% clear and reproducable. Please also replace all VST plugins that are not essential to the problem by MU.LAB's own synths and effects (or better just delete them if they're not part of the problem) so the session becomes small, VST independent and exchangable. Then share the session here via a link or attach it to an email with a description of the issue. Hope you see what i mean. This also applies to any other possible issues, e.g. the mute issue. Thanks in advance!

[johnjaypl]

Relaxed:

John, i do appreciate your intense usage of MU.LAB and the fact that you report any issues here. You'll get your MU.LAB 3 UL User License too. Lets avoid any confusion/discussion about this. I hope you'll have a lot of musical joy with MU.LAB 3, and if you encounter a bug or serious bottleneck please keep on reporting them via this forum or via email.

Cheers,

Jo

Thanks, I appreciate that.

If you're convinced there is something wrong in MU.LAB then could you please narrow down the problem as much as possible so it's 100% clear and reproducable. Please also replace all VST plugins that are not essential to the problem by MU.LAB's own synths and effects (or better just delete them if they're not part of the problem) so the session becomes small, VST independent and exchangable. Then share the session here via a link or attach it to an email with a description of the issue. Hope you see what i mean. This also applies to any other possible issues, e.g. the mute issue. Thanks in advance!

I need to work on the mixdown with MU.LAB 3.0 a bit more before I'm 100% sure that it's the problem. I'm also trying to find an easier to understand demonstration of it. When I'm finished I'll either post an update saying that the problem is really fixed in MU.LAB 3.0 as far as I can tell or post a session that demonstrates the problem.

I'm not really dealing with the "MUTE" issue any more. I replaced Asynth with Minimogue and the problem goes away. (Not that I think Asynth is the actual problem.) Also, I saw this problem in 2.x versions I haven't really tried it in 3.x versions of MU.LAB. When I get around to putting Asynth back in a 3.0 session I'll let you know if I see the mute problem.

John

[johnjaypl]

I thought I'd give an update on my use of mixdown in MU.LAB 3.x.

I've done a lot of testing of a setup similiar to the one where I thought I saw the problem but not using two minimogues. Mostly just using wav players, sometimes one wav player an one minimogue (althugh with a very simple sound).

I've looked at the timing of the wav files after mixdown and they've all looked very good. Lots of delays lots of different timing and no problems.

I'm working my way back up to where I thought I saw some funny timing. If I still don't see anything wrong then I'll try to go back to the original set-up and see if I can repeat my original impression of 3.0

John