MuTools

sunhome · Post by **sunhome** » Sun May 23, 2010 6:17 am

Hi Mu Folks -

I am used to Orion with the multiple patterns slots [a1/a2/a3] which I find to be very intuitive. Perhaps this question to follow comes from being used to using Orion.

I am heavily considering a MULAB purchase

so I just worked in MULAB using the loop start end marker and found it to super intuitive using it this way.

1. Set a sequence of 4 bars in the overall timeline window [not sure the termology]
2. Set up the start loop/end loop on only the first bar
3. Start penciling in a pattern and got something that worked
4. Moved the start loop/end loop on over the second bar
5. Got somethin that worked again, nice ...
6. Stopped here as I realized I had two pieces that I might want to call at anytime, just wasn't sure how I would be able to access the first pattern as there is only one loop start end available.

Bear with me as perhaps this has been asked before...

Why is it that I can't go into a sequence and pick out smaller phrases which I could simply name and then somehow call from the main window [not sure the termonolgy] or the modular area? I do understand that perhaps I could make seperate midi files by cutting the smaller phrases out but that is not as intuitive as I am looking for.

Regards, James

sunhome · Post by **sunhome** » Sun May 23, 2010 6:35 am

BTW, Just had an aha moment here

I just discovered what the part start locator does; as I kept watching the midi do one run through of the pattern and then one run through of a smaller pattern in the midi editing window. Thought it was a glitch at first; then the aha hit!

I have the part start locator in the middle of my loop start and end flags.

Gotta tell you ; it's MULAB madness

Regards, James

pljones · Post by **pljones** » Sun May 23, 2010 7:33 am

Yes, the Part Start is okay if you only need the one run through (i.e. no loop).

If you have a long phrase that you want to have in two parts, where you might want to loop either part of the phrase, you do need to turn it into two separate sequences -- and I can't see an automated way to do it. (Duplicate the sequence, trim the end off the first and set the loop end; clear the first half of the second, move the second half to the front and set the loop end.)

Split Part keeps a single sequence, with a part start marker on the second part -- which is often what you want, of course. Maybe there could be a Split Sequence that does the extra bits..?

janamdo · Post by **janamdo** » Sun May 23, 2010 2:52 pm

pljones wrote:Yes, the Part Start is okay if you only need the one run through (i.e. no loop).

You can't use The Part Start for composing ?

Example: compose the first measure in the sequenze editor, than loop the second measure and position the Part Start marker at the start of the first measure..than you can loop both measures

Do i miss something ?

sunhome · Post by **sunhome** » Sun May 23, 2010 4:12 pm

pljones and janamdo - would it be useful if you wanted to split a sequence into 3 parts to just have the ability to create multiple loop points within a sequence?

Seems like an intuitive solution over the splitting/trimming/copy/making a new sequence option.

janamdo - I am going to need to try your idea of the two sequences with the part start marker at the beginning of the first sequence [not sure that's what you meant as I just reread your post].

Regards, James

pljones · Post by **pljones** » Sun May 23, 2010 4:42 pm

janamdo wrote:
pljones wrote:Yes, the Part Start is okay if you only need the one run through (i.e. no loop).
You can't use The Part Start for composing ?

I didn't say that.

janamdo wrote:Example: compose the first measure in the sequenze editor, than loop the second measure and position the Part Start marker at the start of the first measure..than you can loop both measures

Do i miss something ?

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Sun May 23, 2010 4:45 pm

The Part Start is also really useful at the beginning of the sequencer Part delaying getting engaged into the Part's loop so you don't need to write two Parts.

janamdo · Post by **janamdo** » Sun May 23, 2010 6:22 pm

sunhome wrote:Hi Mu Folks -

Why is it that I can't go into a sequence and pick out smaller phrases which I could simply name and then somehow call from the main window [not sure the termonolgy] or the modular area? I do understand that perhaps I could make seperate midi files by cutting the smaller phrases out but that is not as intuitive as I am looking for.

Regards, James

Another composingmethod in the sequenze editor as explained extensively by liquidsound is by slip-editing of sequenzes
see http://www.mutools.com/mulab-demo-sessions.html musicexample: FreeWay from Mark Bryant
Notice the "thin" vertical lines in the composing screen on the sequenzes
This is a indication that slip-edit is used here

Say you compose one measure..than you pullout with the penciltool (extend this measure
With this method you can also build up a songpattern

Your plan to use multi loops in one track it seems for me not possible ..although ..
It is a confusing in the docs of Mulab is written :

Sequence Loop

Each sequence can have its own independent loop. This means you can build up a composition with a sequence looping every 8 beats while another sequence is looping every 12 beats. This also allows for nice poly-rhythmic music.

From this you can conclude that sequenzes of one track can have its own loops?
I don't understand this not yet

===========================================================================

Another thing for composing i just read.. some math with seeries

Songwriting and the Golden Mean

The Golden Mean, also called the Golden Ratio, is a mathematical ratio that artists, architects and musicians have used in the construction of their art form for centuries. Let's skip all the mathematical complexities and jump to a simple description, and then see how composers have used this in their music to determine if there's a way of using it in songwriting.

If you start with the two whole numbers 0 and 1, adding them together gives you 1. Now take 1 and 1 and add them together, giving you 2. Proceed in this manner, adding the last two numbers of the sequence together to get the next number. This sequence (called the Fibonacci Series) looks like this:

0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144...

If you take any two adjacent numbers, and divide the smaller number into the larger number, you get a number somewhat close to 1.618. And in fact, the further along the sequence you go, the resulting division of the small number into the adjacent larger number gets you closer and closer to 1.618. That number is called the Golden Mean.

That ratio, 1.618, has been used by artists, architects and composers as a way of helping to structure their artistic creations. For example, Da Vinci drew faces that were 1.618 times longer than they were wider. The Parthenon is 1.618 times longer than it is high.

In music, the composer Bela Bartok used the Golden Mean to structure his compositions. For example, in his "Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta," Bartok had musically important events occurring in bar numbers represented by the Fibonacci Series.

But is there a way for songwriters to use the Golden Mean? And why would you want to?

The Golden Mean occurs naturally in the world around us. For example, a snail's shell spirals outward following the Golden mean: if you measure across the largest bump on the sprial, you'll find that it's 1.618 times larger than the smaller bump beside it. Many artists have believed that if you can fit your music into a construction determined by the Golden Mean, you'll be injecting a kind of natural beauty, similar to Da Vinci's portraits.

But how could you do this in songwriting? Applying Golden Mean to your songs will require you to compose much of your song, and then go back and apply Golden Mean. In any case, here are some ideas:

Measure the length of your song in seconds, and then have some important event occur at the 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, etc - second mark. For example, the bridge of a song will naturally want to occur at that moment.
Take the length of your song, multiply it by 0.618, and you'll get a spot in your song that's almost two-thirds of the way along. Let something significant happen there (perhaps a cymbal crash followed by a momentary silence, a change of time signature, etc.)
Change something about the instrumental accompaniment at different spots along the Fibonacci series.
Work backwards through your song, finding moments to make significant events occur along a backwards-running Fibonacci series.
If you find other creative ways to use the Golden Mean in your songs, I'd love to hear about it.

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Sun May 23, 2010 6:53 pm

pljones wrote:If you move the Part Start to the third measure, you'll get:
|BBBB|BBBB|BBBB|BBBB|BBBB|BBBB|BBBB|BBBB.

No if you stretch the part instead of copy.

pljones · Post by **pljones** » Sun May 23, 2010 6:56 pm

What will happen then

sunhome · Post by **sunhome** » Sun May 23, 2010 7:12 pm

janamdo - wow lots of ideas there

Might take me a little to get through what your writing about the slip editing ...

If you've used or demoed orion what is uber intuitive is the piano roll with the banks selection [A-H] and the Pattern Selection [1-8]. These can be slots where you store your patterns for sequencing.

Notice in the screenshot below the user is at the bank/pattern selection A3 ...

I consider the storing of sequences in this manner to make midi editing really nice as you can quickly come up with many more usable patterns as all thats needed is to press one button and you have a new sequence to work with.

Regards, James

sunhome · Post by **sunhome** » Sun May 23, 2010 7:21 pm

Net gain wanted - I am not tied to any one particular method

1. A place to create patterns that don't have to be on the main seuqncer timeline. [not even what I was writing about, just occurred to me now]
2. A way to fish through sequences for smaller pieces that could be marked quickly in an intuitive manner and called out in the sequencer or in the modular area. [this is what I had in mind when I started the post]

Regards, James

janamdo · Post by **janamdo** » Sun May 23, 2010 8:28 pm

sunhome wrote:Net gain wanted - I am not tied to any one particular method

1. A place to create patterns that don't have to be on the main seuqncer timeline. [not even what I was writing about, just occurred to me now]
2. A way to fish through sequences for smaller pieces that could be marked quickly in an intuitive manner and called out in the sequencer or in the modular area. [this is what I had in mind when I started the post]

Regards, James

Yes i remember that from orion ..those premade midi patterns
Where they all one measure length and are they related some ?
A..H banks with each of 8 patterns
I just install Orion, but i don't see yet the midi patterns

Or where it the styles who are premade..for some generators?

Your method of composing from a collection of midi patterns gives more creativity(ideas) than start from scratch like now in MUlab

How to get a database of midi patterns in MUlab ?
For now you must make via midi export/import those midi pattern from orion into Mulab, but there is no easy selection for experimentation/comparison

janamdo · Post by **janamdo** » Sun May 23, 2010 8:37 pm

sunhome wrote:janamdo - wow lots of ideas there Might take me a little to get through what your writing about the slip editing ...

If you've used or demoed orion what is uber intuitive is the piano roll with the banks selection [A-H] and the Pattern Selection [1-8]. These can be slots where you store your patterns for sequencing.

Notice in the screenshot below the user is at the bank/pattern selection A3 ...

I consider the storing of sequences in this manner to make midi editing really nice as you can quickly come up with many more usable patterns as all thats needed is to press one button and you have a new sequence to work with.

Regards, James

Yes a good feature of Orion and MUlab is rather Spartanic (yet), but some forum members had some ideas to add a advanced songcomposer, but that is future music

I must it get it working orion ..so i can look at the pattern again
In project 2 (cakewalk) has also a lot of inbuilt patterns
But for me is interesting how those programs work with songcomposing sequenzes like in MUlab .. work they different ?

MuTools · Post by **MuTools** » Sun May 23, 2010 8:50 pm

Note that you can switch sequences on the fly while you're editing in the Sequence Editor.

Just click the sequence field in the Part Property Panel.
Or use the context menu -> Choose Sequence (shortcuttable if you want).

You can select existing sequences or create new ones.

It's similar to the Orion thing, but different at the same time.

MuTools

KVR Audio

Multiple Loops inside one sequence