U-he AU Parameters not updating in Maschine on preset changes

[taoyoyo]

Hi Urs,

Not sure if this is an NI issue or a U-he one but when using the AU versions inside Maschine (Uhbiks, MFM, Ace, Filterscape) all of the parameter values displayed on the Maschine software and hardware do not update when presets are changed.

For instance, the first patch one might play will have the Cutoff display at 55%. One would load a second patch where the U-he GUI says the cutoff is 85% but the Maschine still displays 55%. The controller knob on Maschine is tweaked but there is a huge leap between real and displayed values (on every parameter).

The VST versions are updating as expected when changing patches and the AU versions work fine in Ableton Live, they just seem to be having issues in Maschine.

(I'd use the VSTs but for the 64 bit conumdrum).

Help me Obi-Urs, you're my last hope

Cheers,

Alan

[Urs]

Many hosts are programmed, well, by plugin developers. They seem to expect from other plugins what they do in their plugins.

My AU and VST plugins send a message "my preset has changed" to the host. Then the host can poll the parameters if it so wishes. Pretty much all hosts do that, just not the ones developed by plugin developers. (uh, well, I think Kore did)

Some plugins (not mine) send individual messages for each parameter even though that is not required from the plugin specifications. It is redundant information which may be harmful to process, e.g. if sent from a render thread. In fact I think that specs should forbid that kind of behaviour and it is above me why some example code would suggest the necessity to do so.

However. As I think to observe that plugin developers who also manufacture hosts are slow to adopt the right thing to do, I've been toying with the idea of adding an option to send parameter automation messages on preset/patch/program change. I will however blame any crash on THEM, e.g if it happens from within the MIDI thread.

Thus, maybe in a few weeks we'll have a beta with a workaround

[taoyoyo]

Hi Urs,

Many thanks for the detailed technical info. Interesting to read.

It is interesting that Maschine is able to pull the preset changes and update the parameters with the VSTs and not the AUs. (NI have previously mentioned to use VSTs wherever possible in their hosts ie: Kore and Maschine).

I would use your VSTs if it were not for them not being 64bit (and Maschine doesn't recognize VST3).

I do appreciate you looking into a solution for this issue and will look out for the Betas.

Cheers,

Alan

[taoyoyo]

Hi Urs,

Know you and the team are really busy with Diva right now but just wanted to see if the 'updating parameters' solution you mentioned was still on the horizon? (maybe after Diva is finished?)

Cheers,

Alan

[taoyoyo]

Hi Urs,

Sorry to drag this one up again but is this functionality that you mentioned adding (to allow parameter updates on preset changes) likely to be implemented at some point?

Cheers,

Alan

[Urs]

oops, yeah...

We'll do that soon.

[taoyoyo]

Thanks Urs.

No probs... I know you've all been a tad busy recently.

[taoyoyo]

Hi Urs.

Just wanted to check to see if this was still going to happen and what the timeframe might be?

What with the 64 bit VST situation I need to use the 64bit AUs (and these are the ones with the issue).

Cheers,

Alan

[taoyoyo]

Hope I'm not flogging a dead horse here but... Any news?

For what it's worth, this isn't just a Maschine issue, it's across the board with all u-he AUs in any host (that I've tried it in).

[taoyoyo]

Hi Urs,

Is this functionality going to be added to all of the u-he plugins for the new versions?

I'm still not seeing it on the betas?

Many thanks,

Alan

[Urs]

I've checked several times, "true AUs" don't do that, I presume only AUs that are wrapped VST work this way.

However, yeah... we're the only ones I guess who do real Audio Units with internal preset browser.

Sigh.

Normally NI and Novation should just say "oh, a preset was changed - let's see what's new", as this is the expected behaviour for AU Hosts.

I agree though, we're a minority.

The mechanism is there now, I'll add it next week. Reluctantly.

[taoyoyo]

Hi Urs,

Many thanks for the reply.

I understand your reluctance and wouldn't ask if there was any other way around it for 64 bit use.

Your VSTs work beautifully in this respect (in all my hosts... Maschine, Kore, Live, etc) but as the VSTs are not going to 64 bit (and none of the above will support VST3) I'm either stuck with 32bit or left reluctantly pestering you about the AU workaround you mentioned a while back.

I do really appreciate you sorting this out.

Cheers,

Alan

[Echoes in the Attic]

I'm in a similar boat. I'm stuck using AU because VST isn't 64bit. When VST3 comes along that won't help either in my hosts (Ableton Live and Maschine). At least for quite some time. Many hosts still have no immediate plans to support VST3. I really don't like the AU because of the issues mentioned here and plenty of other issues (sending midi, automap issues..).

Urs I know you say VST2 is outdated and obsolete now. And I know you probably understand the AU spec better than most devs and host developers! However I think the philosophy you take on these issues (mainly the VST2 thing since you are now working around the AU issue) only ends up hurting the end user because it imposes limitations not often found elsewhere. I rarely have anything critical to say about U-He, but I think that it's a shame when a dev makes decisions based too much on their philosophy of the technology and not on the reality of the users. Most products are still supplying VST2 64bit because that is what in reality many people want or need. It's great that you are doing a workaround for the AU parameter issue, I wish you'd reconsider the VST2 stance. I have my AU directory turned on for one plug-in and that's Diva. I'm even selling Zebra because I don't expect VST3 support in Ableton any time soon. I'd do the same with Diva, but I just can't bear to part with it.

Sorry if my words seem harsh. You guys are friendly, straight forward and no BS. A real joy to support, so don't take it to bad. It's just really disappointing when all my other synths are 64bit VST2 or soon to be, except for the one or two that I'd like to most (Diva and Zebra).

Kind regards

[taoyoyo]

Have to second what Echoes said above.

The only reason I'll have AUs active when everything goes 64bit (and it's really just 2CAudio and Soundtoys left to go) is for my u-he plug-ins (and I own them all, bar Bazille).

I would much prefer to be using VSTs only if at all possible.

I know there was some sound reasoning behind your decision to not support 64bit VSTs but what I don't understand is that everything is working perfectly with 32bit versions and how that could change by introducing 64 bit versions?

[Urs]

Look, our AUs work fine. In fact they use less resources than our VST2s. Only two hosts on Mac do not support AU, but plenty don't support VST. One of those hosts supports VST3 (in fact, it cripples VST2, so VST3 may be advantageous), the other host is Pro Tools and a whole different story.

VST2 64-bit is no-go for us. That's a matter of circumstance. Blame Apple, blame Waves, blame Steinberg, I don't know. Maybe even blame us for still supporting too many legacy plugins. We can't do it without substantial effort.

Anyhow, if updating parameters the "VST way" is the only problem there is with AU then worry not, I think we can do that. Excuse me though when I'm pissed off to have to work around sloppy host implementations.