a question to the patchmasters of zebra and ACE - how do you program those beasts? what is essential to you for doing this with pleasure?
i have moved houses and i am about to set up a new "electronic corner". before, i had a huge stage piano (Kawai MP9500) and a laptop and controllers on top of it. i tried to assign lots of stuff to all kinds of knob and fader controllers but it was all very fiddly, i couldn't see stuff well on the lappie screen and had not much fun making or changing a patch. it was OK for piano practice but that was all.
Now, in our new place, i have an acoustic piano (yeah, i was lucky to find smallish 70s yamaha grand for cheap and had it repaired and newly regulated, worked out really well) - and i am thinking what i should do when setting up a place to transcribe music for my band, generally work on sounds and synth patches and on my live show laptop setup.
i think i should continue using my laptop and audio interface as that's my instrument really. what else do you guys consider essential? should i use a bigger screen? some sort of shelf to put stuff on (like the mouse) and a black-and-white keyboard underneath? what controllers to you use, if any?
cheers
fab
Your u-he Synth Workspace [was: patchmasters: ergonomics question]
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 354 posts since 19 Jul, 2007
noone likes to answer ? - just to clarify this: "patchmasters" to me is anybody who regularly makes patches for the synths! i 'd be happy about any hints, tips, experiences before i go about making the shelves & stuff.
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- Banned
- 6129 posts since 9 Oct, 2007 from an inharmonious society
The best way to get going is to study, the patches of others.
In Zebra it is easiest to do, and to learn from.
You just need to know where to look.
In Zebra the first place to look is in the module grid, and see how it's laid out. What modules are used.
Then in the synth section, notice tunings, if it has sync, phase/PW settings, uses comb filter, fm operators, filters used, their types, and any osc fx settings within any oscillator modules... etc.
Then see what modulations are being used.
Then check the "Matrix" to see other modulations used and their targets.
There's much more to examine, but you have to learn slowly how to read patches.
Then you can try doing some simple one oscillator, one filter sounds.
Add env2 to the filter cutoff mod (already there by default)
Lower the cutoff and everything else to get a good env2 setting, then raise other filter settings up some to hear differences in the sound.
Play with Osc Fx, or the combination settings of 2 of them in different ways.
Try PW, Sync (modulated with an env3 or an mseg)
So in short.
1.Read the manual
2.Study the patches of others
3.Experiment a lot with just 1 oscillator and 1 filter at first, then move on to add other modules.
My suggestion is to learn Zebra, before trying to master ACE, but that's only because that's what I did, and not because it's the best way.
For me, it was the best way.
Mastering how to use Zebra, is not something you can think of in months, but years time...and for some like me, that's still not long enough, as I'm making plans to use it also in the afterlife.
Oh...and good luck...happy patching, and all that.
In Zebra it is easiest to do, and to learn from.
You just need to know where to look.
In Zebra the first place to look is in the module grid, and see how it's laid out. What modules are used.
Then in the synth section, notice tunings, if it has sync, phase/PW settings, uses comb filter, fm operators, filters used, their types, and any osc fx settings within any oscillator modules... etc.
Then see what modulations are being used.
Then check the "Matrix" to see other modulations used and their targets.
There's much more to examine, but you have to learn slowly how to read patches.
Then you can try doing some simple one oscillator, one filter sounds.
Add env2 to the filter cutoff mod (already there by default)
Lower the cutoff and everything else to get a good env2 setting, then raise other filter settings up some to hear differences in the sound.
Play with Osc Fx, or the combination settings of 2 of them in different ways.
Try PW, Sync (modulated with an env3 or an mseg)
So in short.
1.Read the manual
2.Study the patches of others
3.Experiment a lot with just 1 oscillator and 1 filter at first, then move on to add other modules.
My suggestion is to learn Zebra, before trying to master ACE, but that's only because that's what I did, and not because it's the best way.
For me, it was the best way.
Mastering how to use Zebra, is not something you can think of in months, but years time...and for some like me, that's still not long enough, as I'm making plans to use it also in the afterlife.
Oh...and good luck...happy patching, and all that.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 354 posts since 19 Jul, 2007
thanks mcnoone! yes, that's how i try to do this, i got howie's science sounds and have had a closer look at your sounds, too - thank you for making those available!
the question i am trying to ask here is:
how have you set up your "workspace" so you can make patches comfortably and without an aching neck and try them out simultaneously - do you work with a little (or big) masterkeyboard? big screen? what is important to you for making patches and getting to know the synths?
the truth is that during the last year i used my prodyssey hardware synth much more thant u-he stuff because my space was not comfortable for computer things. than i got myself a hardware mixer, an extra hardware reverb and so on... now i doubt that i really need this stuff and want to go back to a nice and clean little laptop space.
i also feel i have used too many midi controllers and am asking myself what's really necessary for a) programming patches and b) playing them live in my band afterwards.
the question i am trying to ask here is:
how have you set up your "workspace" so you can make patches comfortably and without an aching neck and try them out simultaneously - do you work with a little (or big) masterkeyboard? big screen? what is important to you for making patches and getting to know the synths?
the truth is that during the last year i used my prodyssey hardware synth much more thant u-he stuff because my space was not comfortable for computer things. than i got myself a hardware mixer, an extra hardware reverb and so on... now i doubt that i really need this stuff and want to go back to a nice and clean little laptop space.
i also feel i have used too many midi controllers and am asking myself what's really necessary for a) programming patches and b) playing them live in my band afterwards.
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- KVRist
- 44 posts since 6 Jul, 2010 from Denmark
I use a Wacom Bamboo tablet with a pen.
I think it is much easier than using a mouse when I program my synths and my arm/hand isn't as easily tired. It takes some time to get used to it, though.
My laptop is not close to where I sit, so I use an external screen and keyboard.
At work we were told that the computer screen should be at an arms length and that the top of the screen should be in front of our eyes. There are other views on this topic, so do some research.
I use a lot of shortcuts on the keyboard, controlling stuff in my DAW. I'm used to shortcuts, so it is fast and efficient.
My MIDI-keyboard (49 keys) lies in front of me on my table and I often program the knobs and faders so that I can control the synth I'm working with.
I think it is much easier than using a mouse when I program my synths and my arm/hand isn't as easily tired. It takes some time to get used to it, though.
My laptop is not close to where I sit, so I use an external screen and keyboard.
At work we were told that the computer screen should be at an arms length and that the top of the screen should be in front of our eyes. There are other views on this topic, so do some research.
I use a lot of shortcuts on the keyboard, controlling stuff in my DAW. I'm used to shortcuts, so it is fast and efficient.
My MIDI-keyboard (49 keys) lies in front of me on my table and I often program the knobs and faders so that I can control the synth I'm working with.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 354 posts since 19 Jul, 2007
interesting - so the wacom is basically a more precise mouse?
how do you manage to use the masterkeyboard and the QWERTY at the same time? i have been thinking about putting the masterkeyboard on a drawer but i hate it when it moves while i play. might use a keyboard stand and build a table or a a shelf on top, like an inverse U shape, where the screen and the controller stuff goes.
how do you manage to use the masterkeyboard and the QWERTY at the same time? i have been thinking about putting the masterkeyboard on a drawer but i hate it when it moves while i play. might use a keyboard stand and build a table or a a shelf on top, like an inverse U shape, where the screen and the controller stuff goes.
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- KVRAF
- 1617 posts since 11 Dec, 2008 from Minneapolis
IKEA.fas1piano wrote: how do you manage to use the masterkeyboard and the QWERTY at the same time?
I'm no Bob Vila ... IKEA was very helpful for me.This desk ( http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40111124/ ) and 2 drawer/trays that are perfectly sized for QWERTY and the mouse, but I can't find a link. So it's just moving hands up and down to bounce around, I think that's like what you're thinking about. It's great to be able to use mouse and MIDI keys at the same time for patching. (I did use a slab of wood and some feet to do something similar in the past and that was also better than nothing ... all parts from IKEA and now it's a monitor/speaker stand)
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- KVRAF
- 10368 posts since 2 Sep, 2003 from Surrey, UK
^^^^
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50111128/ (but no indication what colour it is, the desk ocmes in 3 colour combos).
£75 for the desk and £18 for the drawer here in the UK
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50111128/ (but no indication what colour it is, the desk ocmes in 3 colour combos).
£75 for the desk and £18 for the drawer here in the UK
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 354 posts since 19 Jul, 2007
this makes a lot of sense. IKEA and i have a difficult relationship especially since i mounted a cupboard named PAX two weeks ago with my brother in law. took a weekend and we broke all kinds of stuff during the process.
but i will definitely take some ideas from this. so you have the screen and masterkeys on the table and the QWERTY and mouse on little drawers underneath?
but i will definitely take some ideas from this. so you have the screen and masterkeys on the table and the QWERTY and mouse on little drawers underneath?
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- Banned
- 6129 posts since 9 Oct, 2007 from an inharmonious society
That's what I get for reading the first question, and thinking that's it.
Well you can see how I work by looking at the picture of my son at my workstation here.
http://soundcloud.com/monomo
A stool supports my m-audio25 and a lap on the desk.
I don't have a permanent residence, so have to make due with what I got.
I also only use a wacom tablet.
Well you can see how I work by looking at the picture of my son at my workstation here.
http://soundcloud.com/monomo
A stool supports my m-audio25 and a lap on the desk.
I don't have a permanent residence, so have to make due with what I got.
I also only use a wacom tablet.
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- KVRAF
- 1617 posts since 11 Dec, 2008 from Minneapolis
I feel like I was tipped off to the dangers of IKEA by Fight Club.fas1piano wrote:IKEA and i have a difficult relationship ...
Yep, just like that - there are no fronts on the trays I have (I think they came from another line), so for qwerty and mouse they're unobstructed pulled halfway out. Screen is on a stand on the tabletop, MIDI keyboard right above the qwerty/mouse trays. There is a good amount of space left over for some other stuff too.fas1piano wrote: so you have the screen and masterkeys on the table and the QWERTY and mouse on little drawers underneath?
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- KVRAF
- 1596 posts since 19 May, 2011 from North Carolina
I use a laptop with and without and external screen, and one great thing about u-he synths is you can resize the GUI - when you're just making patches that's helpful. I have a Mac and the ctrl-mouse-zoom feature is awesome also.
You have to play around with shelf configuration to find what's comfortable - for a time I had my bluetooth mouse/qwerty keyboard on the lowest shelf (I also code so spend a lot of time with them!), and ergonomically that is supposed to be better for your wrists. However, I discovered it was not comfortable for me. Keep in mind also that some midi controllers sit a little higher than the pull-out shelf height on many desks, or in the case of the mpk25, they are deeper (I had to retrofit a shelf to pull it out more. That's an issue if you need access to knobs.
I do find myself programming with a mouse more, because with ACE, etc., there are too many controls to map to most controllers to be bothered. However (and I'm using Ableton), I sometimes map the filter cutoff, res, and 2 ADSRs to knobs for tweaking, so I can, for example, adjust something like an OSC detune with a mouse while fiddling with cutoff, etc.
You need to of course consider monitor placement, etc. and when I'm on a laptop and using headphones I use Focusrite's VRM for a great little portable alternative to the laptop D/As). I just try to be conscious not to any real mixing or worry too much about getting a sound perfect, since cans are certainly not ideal for that.
That said, I'm never really satisfied - need a 4 foot, 4 level desk with a 27 in screen 88 keys 24 knobs and 24 faders, always mapped to where I want them...
Hope this little brain dump helps
You have to play around with shelf configuration to find what's comfortable - for a time I had my bluetooth mouse/qwerty keyboard on the lowest shelf (I also code so spend a lot of time with them!), and ergonomically that is supposed to be better for your wrists. However, I discovered it was not comfortable for me. Keep in mind also that some midi controllers sit a little higher than the pull-out shelf height on many desks, or in the case of the mpk25, they are deeper (I had to retrofit a shelf to pull it out more. That's an issue if you need access to knobs.
I do find myself programming with a mouse more, because with ACE, etc., there are too many controls to map to most controllers to be bothered. However (and I'm using Ableton), I sometimes map the filter cutoff, res, and 2 ADSRs to knobs for tweaking, so I can, for example, adjust something like an OSC detune with a mouse while fiddling with cutoff, etc.
You need to of course consider monitor placement, etc. and when I'm on a laptop and using headphones I use Focusrite's VRM for a great little portable alternative to the laptop D/As). I just try to be conscious not to any real mixing or worry too much about getting a sound perfect, since cans are certainly not ideal for that.
That said, I'm never really satisfied - need a 4 foot, 4 level desk with a 27 in screen 88 keys 24 knobs and 24 faders, always mapped to where I want them...
Hope this little brain dump helps
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- KVRAF
- 13135 posts since 7 May, 2006 from Southern California
I like to design sounds in bed. I have my laptop, a 25 note midi controller (an Oxygen 25) with some assignable knobs and stuff, a small audio interface (MBox Micro) and a set of headphones.
Of course, I have a real workstation in my studio but while I was recovering from illness over the past few years, it really wore me out to even sit upright for long periods of time. I developed the habit of doing tasks that didn't require a lot of hardware, in bed and now I've grown to enjoy it.
Of course, I have a real workstation in my studio but while I was recovering from illness over the past few years, it really wore me out to even sit upright for long periods of time. I developed the habit of doing tasks that didn't require a lot of hardware, in bed and now I've grown to enjoy it.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 354 posts since 19 Jul, 2007
thanks for all the input!
i think what i can take away already is that it's really about focusing on the patch making activity (screen, mouse, maybe one knob controller) more and less on the masterkey-playing. will think about that.
maybe i will use a K&M keyboard table 18950 for which it seems that rolls can be ordered additionally and put the master keys on that.
then design a slightly higher shelf (e.g. white MDF) for the other stuff. this would give me enough space for screen, QWERTY, mouse and a BCR2000 and i could shove the masterkeys underneath. and a normal book shelf for preamps, amps audio interface and stuff.
i think what i can take away already is that it's really about focusing on the patch making activity (screen, mouse, maybe one knob controller) more and less on the masterkey-playing. will think about that.
maybe i will use a K&M keyboard table 18950 for which it seems that rolls can be ordered additionally and put the master keys on that.
then design a slightly higher shelf (e.g. white MDF) for the other stuff. this would give me enough space for screen, QWERTY, mouse and a BCR2000 and i could shove the masterkeys underneath. and a normal book shelf for preamps, amps audio interface and stuff.
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- KVRist
- 44 posts since 6 Jul, 2010 from Denmark
Well, it is just easier to turn the knobs with the Wacom. It just feels 'right' somehow, maybe because it is a pen, which corresponds to a pencil, which I use a lot.fas1piano wrote:interesting - so the wacom is basically a more precise mouse?
On my table - a totally plain one, from Ikea by the way - the computer keyboard is in front of me, right to it is the Wacom. Just behind these two is my midi-keyboard.fas1piano wrote: how do you manage to use the masterkeyboard and the QWERTY at the same time?
I start and stop playback/recording with the computer keyboard with my left hand, but normally I do not use the shortcuts while playing (too difficult).
While I play I use the modwheel and the programmed buttons/sliders on my midi-keyboard a lot, they are an important part of my musicmaking.
I usually program some of the sliders with the same function, regardless of the synth I use. For example, the leftmost controls the filter cutoff, the next one the resonance, so that I don't have to think about it too much (that hurts).