Help me to end my doubt (ACE-related)

[Canteruh]

Hello ! First post here.

I'm going to buy my second soft synth. First one I bought was Audio Damage's Phosphor, which is really sweet for pads, sad digital grittyness and additive thrills, but cannot do any type of fat, low and powerful sound without cranking an EQ after it, which I don't like to do.

After looking at most of the soft synths on the market, I finally chose ACE as the one, being cheap (I could afford pricier synths, but really don't want to. I have this feeling that buying soft things is already strange enough not to put hundreds for code… anyway.), having excellent customer support (just take a look at this forum…) and sounding awfully good.

But, cause there's always something that has to come up late and *beep* everything up, I saw that synth called Circle by Future Audio Workshop. Demoed it, sounds good, and is, most of all, more graphical than ACE. I mean, you see the sound you are going to hear and where's the button you have to tweak to change the sound.

And modulation. I mean, only one source per input …yeah, you can use multis, but you only have two, and still, you don't have complete control over everything.

So here are my questions, to all of you ACE users :

Over time, are you able to rapidly pinpoint what builds up a sound, and how to change it ?

Can you simply tell me to keep my mouth closed and buy ACE because it's simply better ?

What do you think of Circle ?

And to Urs (if by some miracle your god-blessed eyes roll over this sentence) :

I remember you saying that ACE XL (in Berlin Modular) would either be free or have its price cut down for existing ACE customers.
And, by the way, do you already know what we could expect from ACE XL synth-engine wise ?

Love,

Emile

PS : I'm not a native english speaker, so if there's some mistake, 1) I beg your understanding 2) that's not so désagréable, non ?

[Gonga]

I'm not familiar with Circle. I do own ACE, Zebra and Diva. I have a personal bias that ACE is the weakest of the three U-He synths for bass. I would recommend Diva for VA bass instead.

[pdxindy]

You have to decide what you like. If Circle does it for you, then get it. It didn't interest me and I find ACE much more sonically interesting.

The price you pay for ACE will be discounted from the full Berlin Modular (when it ships) which includes 3 synths one of which will be ACE XL

[Canteruh]

Huh, by "fat low and powerful sound", I meant a sound that has some bass content, i.e., pads can be heavy, ambient noises too… Just that the other, Phosphor, is too thin.
Price… well, well, I'll see.
Thanks for the answer.

[pdxindy]

I'm not familiar with Circle. I do own ACE, Zebra and Diva. I have a personal bias that ACE is the weakest of the three U-He synths for bass. I would recommend Diva for VA bass instead.

ACE has considerable sonic range Diva does not with its audio rate modulations...

[Canteruh]

pdxindy, my answer will be the title of a Strokes song : You're So Right.

I'll be making up my mind these days…

In fact, I want a VA synth because I ordered a Peterson Sonuus i2m, which is an audio-midi converter. It should be a blast, we'll see

I've also tried Bazille, which is also a sonic beast. Huh. I should go for ACE, waiting then for Berlin Modular.

[mcnoone]

I would say to try the Zebra demo out before deciding.
You mentioned pads a lot, and pads in ACE are not nearly as easy to do or easy on the cpu as in Zebra.
I also feel Zebra has a better sound library for it than ACE. Free or commercial.
ACE is better at the crazy modular sequence, noises, blurps and stuff.
I also feel it can do great mono/legato basses, and leads, but poly with voices is cpu heavy, but very thick sounding.
Zebra is simply more diverse in synthesis, and sound capability.

...but demo them and see.
Don't forget to load up some free presets with your Zebra demo, as to get some more diverse sounds than just the installed presets, which are good, but more variety can't hurt.

[Gonga]

I'm not familiar with Circle. I do own ACE, Zebra and Diva. I have a personal bias that ACE is the weakest of the three U-He synths for bass. I would recommend Diva for VA bass instead.

ACE has considerable sonic range Diva does not with its audio rate modulations...

? I didn't think Diva used audio rate modulation, but I know ACE does. How does this affect the bass? For me, ACE just doesn't do solid basses, it has a sort of Eurosynth sound - thin and sweet. I don't get how Diva's minimoog-like bass capabilties wouldn't measure up...I've gotten stronger, better bass sounds out of it the first day than I did from ACE after 6 months of trying. Also, ACE doesn't have a strong attack, Diva's attack is much more useful for analog bass imo.

Diva is also ideal for pads.

I agree with Michael about Zebra but didn't recommend it because it sounds like the OP doesn't want to spend the cash.

ymmv

[pdxindy]

I'm not familiar with Circle. I do own ACE, Zebra and Diva. I have a personal bias that ACE is the weakest of the three U-He synths for bass. I would recommend Diva for VA bass instead.

ACE has considerable sonic range Diva does not with its audio rate modulations...

? I didn't think Diva used audio rate modulation, but I know ACE does. How does this affect the bass? For me, ACE just doesn't do solid basses, it has a sort of Eurosynth sound - thin and sweet. I don't get how Diva's minimoog-like bass capabilties wouldn't measure up...I've gotten stronger, better bass sounds out of it the first day than I did from ACE after 6 months of trying. Also, ACE doesn't have a strong attack, Diva's attack is much more useful for analog bass imo.

Diva is also ideal for pads.

I agree with Michael about Zebra but didn't recommend it because it sounds like the OP doesn't want to spend the cash.

ymmv

Sorry, I meant ACE with its audio rate modulations has sonic territory Diva cannot reach. So, for example, you can do various FM bass sounds in ACE you would not get with Diva.

[JoeCat]

...ACE just doesn't do solid basses, it has a sort of Eurosynth sound - thin and sweet.

I hadn't quite put my finger on it but that's a great way to describe it. I own ACE and will own Diva shortly (have demoed it extensively), and while ACE's bass seem to me to have a solid bottom, it doesn't seem as as rounded -it's easy to get something with lots of low-end and color in the highs, and that sounds great when by itself, however that nuance it can easily get lost in the mix. Of course, that could be my patching skills, however there are not a lot of typical, "fat and warm" factory patches. Doesn't mean you can do some great bass things with it (and I love the synth for all the solid, sonic weirdness it can do), but it certainly does seem easier to dial in more typical, rounded basses with Diva.

In the 70s there were Arp guys and Moog guys, but the smart money was on both (nothing like a Moog bass with some Arp Odyssey leads)

To the OP - I haven't used Circle (I do have Phosphor and love it, but it's hardly a well-rounded synth). It's easy to get "typical" subtractive sounds out of ACE (I don't think it's always obvious that unlike a hardware modular or Bazille, for example, the basic modules are already "wired" up in a typical fashion), however those sounds are more "ACE-like", whereas a synth like Diva is more versatile up front.

ACE rewards experimentation with awesomely crisp sonic weirdness.

Lots of people like Circle; I believe it's closer in spirit to u-He's Zebra, being a wavetable synth with lots of different filter options, etc.

There are a lot of "either/or" posts on the forums, however it seems to me that these instruments have different strengths and weaknesses, and even amongst subtractive synths, there's a room for a lot of variety, including the synths that have a distinctly digital sound. I understand we don't have unlimited cash, however these synths are extraordinarily cheap compared to virtually any other instrument - I can't see owning just one.

IMHO of course.

[Canteruh]

(Just a question : "OP" means "original poster", right ?)

I see what you mean with the cheapness of synths, but I prefer choosing only one synth, slowly master it, over months, see how it gets on with the other ones I already own, and then from there, choose the next one.

I'm quite afraid of the size and capabilities of Zebra…

I'll futher demo ACE, Circle and Zebra (I humbly decided to take DIVA out of the poll because of the heavy cpu taxing, which my already half-old computer won't like at all, and because sonic weirdnesses are definitely in my needs).

[bmrzycki]

(Just a question : "OP" means "original poster", right ?)

Yes.

I prefer choosing only one synth, slowly master it, over months...I'm quite afraid of the size and capabilities of Zebra.

If this is your preferred method of working I actually recommend Zebra. It can be overwhelming at first, I agree. However, if you force yourself to only use certain modules you can think of that as a "mini-synth" and learn all there is to know about that.

I recommend the following signal flow:
(MODULE GRID)
[OSC1]
[VCF1]

(FX GRID)
[ModFX]
[Delay1]
[Rev1]

This layout is an extremely powerful setup and there are only 5 modules to learn. Really spend time with the wavetables and the OscFX sections. Explore all 19 filter types (and switch between 2.3 and 2.5 mode at the top, the filters sound very different in those modes).

Resist the urge to add more modules like combs, XMF, SB, etc. Learn these inside and out. You can make amazing sounds with just a few modules in Zebra. Look at the Factory sounds by Howard -- many of his presets use fewer than 4-5 modules.

Then slowly add other modules to explore.

Zebra has the advantage of being very friendly to older CPUs, unlike ACE and Diva. And Urs often adds new modules that expand the sound footprint of Zebra over time. The amazing XMF filter was added as a minor point release and free to all registered users. The 2.5 filters were also added for free.

I consider Zebra to be the best value for my money of pretty much any piece of music software. So don't give up on Zebra just yet! Don't forget you can demo Zebra for an unlimited time and you can save presets too. There are no noise bursts or crackles, notes just start to change after about 15 mins. You can learn a LOT about Zebra without spending a cent.

[Canteruh]

Well, bmrzycki, I would not have thought that an answer would make me change my mind, but yours did.

When I'll feel ready for it, I'll download the zebra demo and play around.

And for JoeCat, yeah, seeing Circle as a zebra-like (but less good, duh) is convincing me in buying it.

Thanks to all of you for making me think twice.

[Urs]

Btw, if you want to get the hang of u-he, try TyrellN6, Zebralette and Bazille. They are basically free (Bazille until December 2012, the other two forever). What they have in common is what all our synths have, same parameter ranges, same modulation paradigm. Just completely different types of synth. But when you master these, you'll be certain about what you get from their big brothers.

[pdxindy]

Well, bmrzycki, I would not have thought that an answer would make me change my mind, but yours did.

When I'll feel ready for it, I'll download the zebra demo and play around.

And for JoeCat, yeah, seeing Circle as a zebra-like (but less good, duh) is convincing me in buying it.

Thanks to all of you for making me think twice.

And we can imagine how great will be the next version of Zebra!!!!! There is nothing like it... and it keeps getting better and better because it is ongoing in development so the time you put into learning it keeps bring new rewards. (Sorry, but imo Circle cannot compare). The semi modular design of Zebra lets it keep improving in ways it would be hard to do with a fixed synth.