Bazille questions

[Ap0C552]

I saw a video about Bazille and I first thought "that looks awesome!"

I thought it looked very flexible and powerful. But after trying out the beta I am left thinking that this is not the case.

For example I thought I could take an LFO and route it anywhere.

Now I am wondering "Where can I route an LFO?" I can't even figure out how to have an LFO control an filter envelope.

I also thought "Oh cool adsr envelopes, that would be awesome if I could just route as many oscillators as I please into to which ever adsr envelope I please"

Now that I tried it I feel that I am more confined in with this synth in terms of controlling adsr on any one osc. It seems to me that adsr one is controlling the volume envelope for the entire output of all oscs.

Is there a way I can say put ocs 1 in adsr 1, then osc 2,3,4 into adsr 2?

Can I have each of the 4 osc running into its own volume envelope?

How do I get an LFO to control a filter?

I mean you are using this whole idea of routing. Why not just have each adsr envelope have and in and an out.....simple done.

[xh3rv]

It seems to me that adsr one is controlling the volume envelope for the entire output of all oscs.

There's a default application of of ASDR 1 to the output VCA - check the 'Outputs' module

Is there a way I can say put ocs 1 in adsr 1, then osc 2,3,4 into adsr 2?

Can I have each of the 4 osc running into its own volume envelope?

I mean you are using this whole idea of routing. Why not just have each adsr envelope have and in and an out.....simple done.

In Bazille the ADSRs get routed to other modules, stuff doesn't go through an ADSR. Likewise with LFOs and other mod sources.

There are two VCAs on the output which can use any ASDR, each OSC has an amplitude modulation socket (to the right of the direct amplitude control) which the ADSRs can be routed. Also, the multiplier modules can all apply amplitude modulations.

Conceptually - the logic is more like (well, exactly like mathematically ...) an ADSR is multiplied with a signal through a VCA to apply an ASDR to amplitude. Not splitting hairs here, this is really a key point in modulars being modular. The operations become a little more abstracted but more broadly functional, flexible, and assignable. Synths with fixed signal paths are special cases of what's possible with modularity!

There are videos on YouTube for Bazille and ACE (similar patching, less modules and some fixed routing so an interesting alternative, modular-wise) from Urs and Howard that get at a lot of finer points, definitely worth checking out.

How do I get an LFO to control a filter?

Patch the LFO1 or 2 to the Mod1/2 of the filter, adjust the mod knob for depth. You might have to tweak the AmpMod on the LFO - I'd suggest dropping it to zero to ensure the LFO is moving.

[helium]

ADSRs generate an envelope. Routing something to an ADSR doesn't make sense (unless you'd want somethink freaky like audio-rate modulation of the attack or decay time or whatever, which AFAIK isn't supported in Bazille). You can use an ADSR to control other elements, e.g. the volume of something or the filter cutoff frequency or whatever else you like.

[justin3am]

Now I am wondering "Where can I route an LFO?" I can't even figure out how to have an LFO control an filter envelope.

I also thought "Oh cool adsr envelopes, that would be awesome if I could just route as many oscillators as I please into to which ever adsr envelope I please"

It seems you misunderstand the fundamentals of signal flow. You can't route sound sources into modulation sources. You can use modulation sources to modify aspects of the different modules. Outputs go to inputs and all that. xh3rv has done a very good job of describing how signals in Bazille work (eg mixing two signals requires a mux or multiple, each output can feed multiple destinations).

You may also want to check out some of the patches in the U-He patch library. You can start by tweaking patches that sound cool to you to figure out how they work.

Bazille is an incredibly flexible and powerful synth, though you have to spend some time with it to get the most from it.

[Ap0C552]

Thanks for the responses!

I still don't know how to get a ADSR envelope to shape a specific oscillator.

Under outputs I get the VCA to gate.

Then I took the hole (what should I be calling it here?) in adsr1 and routed into the hole next to the volume. No results.

[justin3am]

Each oscillator has it's own VCA, so to control the volume of each osc independently, you need to route envelopes to the CV inputs for those VCAs.
Try this patch...
http://www.3amnoise.net/env_demo.h2p
Envelope2 controls the volume of Osc1 and Envelope3 controls the volume of Osc2. Envelope 1 controls the global VCA.
Do you see how the volume for Osc1 and 2 are turned all the way down, but the depth control is turned up? This is done because the envelope only generates positive values. If you want to control the VCA with a bi-polar mod source (like an LFO) you'd want to turn up the volume on the VCA, so that when the LFO swings to negative values it's reducing the volume from the state set by the vol parameter and when the LFO is at a positive value it increases the volume from the state set by the vol parameter. This concept can be applied to any of the modulation inputs on Bazille.

we generally refer to those holes as jacks or inputs and outputs (the inputs are a lighter color than the outputs).

[Ap0C552]

That is how I figured it worked but for one reason or another it was not working for me at first.

Ok I am starting to have fun now!

BTW I noticed there is another similar synth by U-he called Ace. How do these two synths compare?

From a quick read up it seems ACE has less adsr envelopes, and no FM.

[xh3rv]

That is how I figured it worked but for one reason or another it was not working for me at first.

Ok I am starting to have fun now!

BTW I noticed there is another similar synth by U-he called Ace. How do these two synths compare?

From a quick read up it seems ACE has less adsr envelopes, and no FM.

The modular patching is very similar. Bazille was the first with this, ACE is the (first) refined as a commercial project. It's a bit of a tighter presentation, and it has things like unison, lower / adjustable CPU usage, FX, a more polished GUI.

Overall it's a bit smaller, there are some things in ACE that aren't in Bazille and vice versa (FM is possible, as well as phase modulation in both). It's big enough to get lost in modular space It's also in a sense reduced, for example rather than 4 oscillators that do everything, in ACE they all have individual quirks. There are default routings in ACE that, while over-ridable, add a sensible skeleton for patching.

IMHO ACE is more comfortable, no reason for Bazille not to be on any machine that can handle it (wtf freeware!), but they're ultimately differently capable.

[Ap0C552]

I am not extremely experienced or knowledgeable in synthesizers and in no position to make the following statement.... but I am going to say that ACE blows(after trying the demo). But since I am not very knowledgeable...what can ACE do that the other synths I have used, not do...(Operator, FM8).

Also what exactly does "Modular synth" mean?

[justin3am]

Well a modular synth is typically a synthesizer that consists of many independently functioning modules that can be connected arbitrarily. Bazille and ACE use a fixed quantity of modules like an ARP 2600 so the focus is on the ability to interconnect those modules in ways that aren't possible in other synths. This flexibility is most evident in the fact that control signals and audio signals are interchangeable.

While ACE isn't my favorite U-he synth, I wouldn't say it sucks. I think it's a mistake to compare it to Operator or FM8, ACE is more focussed on subtractive synthesis (though it's capable of simple FM). Try feeding the output of a filter to it's own modulation input... not many synths allow that kind of feedback routing. It's all a matter of personal preference though.

[Ap0C552]

Are there any other really good software modular synths out there?

[bmrzycki]

Are there any other really good software modular synths out there?

Zebra2 can be considered a "wireless modular", Bazille is modular, ACE is modular. There are other products too, I'd argue Propellerheads Reason is a software modular playground, as is the VSTi Karma synth by KarmaFX. I think Arturia does one too to mimic the Moog rack.

But I have to ask, what's your goal here? You said you're new to synthesis, why are you starting with complicated modular systems? You also mentioned learning/using FM synths, also something I'd consider more complicated than subtractive synthesis.

If you're serious about learning synthesis I'd recommend a dead-simple synth like synth1. Learn how oscillator waves sound solo and combined with other oscillators. Learn about oscillator detunings, setting them apart by several semitones and then by octave(s). Learn the different filter types and how they sound with and without resonance and how cutoff shapes the sound. Learn How important the filter envelope is to shaping a sound of the filter over time. Learn how important applying velocity to the filter envelope is for a more "alive" sound. Learn how to contour the sound with the amp envelope to make it a pad or a lead or an FX or a bass sound.

Next you can learn about modulators like LFOs and Mod envelopes. Learn what PWM is, how to do it. All of these skills are directly applicable to 90+% of all subtractive synths.

If you start with 30+ knobs staring you in the face AND you have to make the cables connect to the modules without understanding the theory of why the module is even there then you're bound to be frustrated.

It's gonna take time to move past presets -- but I promise you that time is well spent. Good luck!

[Ap0C552]

If you're serious about learning synthesis I'd recommend a dead-simple synth like synth1. Learn how oscillator waves sound solo and combined with other oscillators. Learn about oscillator detunings, setting them apart by several semitones and then by octave(s). Learn the different filter types and how they sound with and without resonance and how cutoff shapes the sound. Learn How important the filter envelope is to shaping a sound of the filter over time. Learn how important applying velocity to the filter envelope is for a more "alive" sound. Learn how to contour the sound with the amp envelope to make it a pad or a lead or an FX or a bass sound.

Hi thanks for the response. I am not new to synthesis. When I first tried out Bazille I hit a bunch of things I had never heard of before. Basically the implementation was different.

Anyways ya I know Ableton operator like the back of my hand inside and out. I also subsequently have learned FM8 quite thoroughly. But these are NOTHING like a synth like Bazille that is based of older hardware synths and stuff.
I am completely comfortable with the theory of additive, subtractive, and FM synthethis. Soon I want to try out wavetable too.

Why did bazille interest me? I liked complicated things....LOL

Well actually I looked at it and thought that it seemed quite powerful. In operator I am always running into a problem like "Gee I wish I had another free LFO to control pitch, but I have my only free one controlling the filter"

Anyways here is another question related to ACE and Bazille.

When I turn up filter resonance the entire sound gets more quiet. This does not make sense to me, and is not congruent with what I have experienced with every other filter.

To me filter resonance is kind of like the bump on the threshold of where the filter is cutting off. So Say I have a low pass 12db filter cutting off at 800hz. The frequencies around the threshold will be increased. But surely increasing filter res will have no effect on frequencies at 100hz. Since 100hz is no where near the threshold of 800hz where the filter is set.

But in bazille increasing filter res makes the entire sound more quiet. Makes no sense to me.

[xh3rv]

Anyways here is another question related to ACE and Bazille.

When I turn up filter resolution the entire sound gets more quiet. This does not make sense to me, and is not congruent with what I have experienced with every other filter.

To me filter resolution is kind of like the bump on the threshold of where the filter is cutting off. So Say I have a low pass 12db filter cutting off at 800hz. The frequencies around the threshold will be increased. But surely increasing filter res will have no effect on frequencies at 100hz. Since 100hz is no where near the threshold of 800hz where the filter is set.

But in bazille increasing filter res makes the entire sound more quite. Makes no sense to me.

There's a ton of range and nuance with that range in ACE and Bazille's filters, it really takes a bit to fully explore them. They are very good. (I avoid Operator's filters like the plague these days ...)

I would suggest a self-oscillation test of Bazille versus Operator's filters. Play a note, crank the resonance to max, and put an LFO the filter to get the cutoff/pitch to swing around. Be sure to trim the overall volume of Operator as you're likely to clip For some further insight, next adjust the volume of the input signals, and try using some shaping in Operator or filter 'gain' in Bazille.

This should reveal a lot, and directly relates to why the filter in Bazille quiets the input.

[bmrzycki]

Hi thanks for the response. I am not new to synthesis. When I first tried out Bazille I hit a bunch of things I had never heard of before. Basically the implementation was different. Anyways ya I know Ableton operator like the back of my hand inside and out. I also subsequently have learned FM8 quite thoroughly.

Sorry for the misconception then, my apologies. I was thrown off by your comment:

I am not extremely experienced or knowledgeable in synthesizers and in no position to make the following statement.... but I am going to say that ACE blows(after trying the demo). But since I am not very knowledgeable...

I am completely comfortable with the theory of additive, subtractive, and FM synthethis. Soon I want to try out wavetable too. But these are NOTHING like a synth like Bazille that is based of older hardware synths and stuff. Why did bazille interest me? I liked complicated things...

Bazille uses phase distortion oscillators. Gordon Reid actually has a very good discussion about PD Oscs. He talks about the ones in Reason's Thor, but the theory at least applies to both (more or less): Part 1 || Part 2

Those two articles might help you better understand the Oscillators in Bazille.