I've been having some issues with Zebra and Renoise on Mac.
Since updating to Zebra 2.5.4, some of my patches are failing to properly receive note cut off signals from Renoise.
It's a pretty rare problem and only seems to affect some patches - when playing back a sequence in Renoise, notes will fail to cut off, and sometimes not play at all. I can't find any commonality between the problematic patches. It's a mystery.
Renoise plays notes endlessly until they are cut off by an OFF command or by another note in the same channel. This problem only seems to affect the latter of those cases, where notes are being cut-off by following notes in the same channel. Generally including an "OFF" command seems to solve the problem.
Zebra plays fine otherwise.. receiving note-offs from controller keyboards without an issue. This only affects playback.
I realise this is probably a problem for the Renoise devs, but I find it very strange that this behaviour only started after updating to Zebra 2.5.4, and also does not occur with any other AUs. Consequently some older songs made with this same version of Renoise (2.8.1) but the previous version of Zebra now do not play properly.
Did something change about the way Zebra receives controller or MIDI information from DAWs?
Odd note cutoff behaviour with Zebra 2.5.4 in Renoise
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- KVRAF
- 26984 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
I would have thought Zebra always behaved as you are seeing it now... Zebra needs a note off cause it can play more than 1 (C3 for example) of the same note at a time...
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 178 posts since 13 Dec, 2009 from Sweden
Thanks for the response!
That's an characteristic of the way that modern MIDI and softsynth enabled trackers like Renoise function. Polyphonic behaviour is represented by vertically scrolling columns. Columns are monophonic, so for a four note chord you would use four columns to give a polyphony of four. As the columns are monophonic, when a second note plays in the same column it cuts off any previous notes playing.. the equivalent of a note cut-off.
The behaviour I've been experiencing is related to this. Whereas in 90% of my Zebra patches, notes in these monophonic columns are consistently cut off, for some reason some patches are not being cut off as they should be.
Again, this is probably an issue for the Renoise people, but it's just so strange that this behaviour started up with Zebra 2.5.4, and as far as I have seen only seems to affect 2.5.4.
That's an characteristic of the way that modern MIDI and softsynth enabled trackers like Renoise function. Polyphonic behaviour is represented by vertically scrolling columns. Columns are monophonic, so for a four note chord you would use four columns to give a polyphony of four. As the columns are monophonic, when a second note plays in the same column it cuts off any previous notes playing.. the equivalent of a note cut-off.
The behaviour I've been experiencing is related to this. Whereas in 90% of my Zebra patches, notes in these monophonic columns are consistently cut off, for some reason some patches are not being cut off as they should be.
Again, this is probably an issue for the Renoise people, but it's just so strange that this behaviour started up with Zebra 2.5.4, and as far as I have seen only seems to affect 2.5.4.
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- KVRAF
- 26984 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
Urs may have to address your question...
In your example (and I have never used a tracker) a column is monophonic... but Zebra is polyphonic on a column so it needs the actual note off...
Like I said, I would have guessed that how Zebra is behaving for you in 2.5.4 is how it also would have acted previously. Maybe Urs put in some exception behavior so Zebra acted differently in renoise in previous versions and that exception got left out in 2.5.4?
In your example (and I have never used a tracker) a column is monophonic... but Zebra is polyphonic on a column so it needs the actual note off...
Like I said, I would have guessed that how Zebra is behaving for you in 2.5.4 is how it also would have acted previously. Maybe Urs put in some exception behavior so Zebra acted differently in renoise in previous versions and that exception got left out in 2.5.4?
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 178 posts since 13 Dec, 2009 from Sweden
Thanks for your time nonetheless pdxindy. Trackers are a totally different paradigm to standard horizontal timelines and piano rolls, but this particular behaviour is most certainly unusual for a tracker. As I said it's suspicious that it only affects certain patches, and only since updating to 2.5.4.
The only commonality between the affect patches that I can find is that they both use Combs (I love my combs!) and that they both use monophonic voice modes.. retrigger and legato.
Has something changed about the way that Zebra receives or actions note and note-off data in retrigger or legato modes?
The only commonality between the affect patches that I can find is that they both use Combs (I love my combs!) and that they both use monophonic voice modes.. retrigger and legato.
Has something changed about the way that Zebra receives or actions note and note-off data in retrigger or legato modes?
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- u-he
- 30227 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Hey, can you send us a Renoise project to support at u-he dot com?
We did indeed change some stuff to actually prevent such issues in general, but d'oh, maybe there's something odd we didn't catch.
Btw. Zebra can play any note twice or more often at the same time. That means, a NoteOn on a sounding note does not remove the necessity to send a NoteOff for the previous note.
We did indeed change some stuff to actually prevent such issues in general, but d'oh, maybe there's something odd we didn't catch.
Btw. Zebra can play any note twice or more often at the same time. That means, a NoteOn on a sounding note does not remove the necessity to send a NoteOff for the previous note.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 178 posts since 13 Dec, 2009 from Sweden
Thanks Urs, will do.
I'm sort of relieved to hear that something had changed!
I'm sort of relieved to hear that something had changed!
Right. Renoise would be taking care of this though, as notes in the same monophonic column will always cut-off (and thereby cause a NoteOff event) previous notes that are playing.Btw. Zebra can play any note twice or more often at the same time. That means, a NoteOn on a sounding note does not remove the necessity to send a NoteOff for the previous note.
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- KVRAF
- 1888 posts since 13 Aug, 2011 from Berlin
Hi a-type,
thanx for sending me that project.
Zebra works correctly. You have set Voice Mode to legato, and legato does what you described. Just set it to retrigger and Zebra does what you want to hear.
thanx for sending me that project.
Zebra works correctly. You have set Voice Mode to legato, and legato does what you described. Just set it to retrigger and Zebra does what you want to hear.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 178 posts since 13 Dec, 2009 from Sweden
Hi Fritze,
Thanks for the reply!
I'm not sure that the problem is the legato voice mode. How is it that this same patch which I sent you, unaltered between the two versions of Zebra (2.5.4 and the previous) and played back in the same version of Renoise, produces two completely different results? Wouldn't that indicate a deeper problem than just the voice mode?
Thanks for the reply!
I'm not sure that the problem is the legato voice mode. How is it that this same patch which I sent you, unaltered between the two versions of Zebra (2.5.4 and the previous) and played back in the same version of Renoise, produces two completely different results? Wouldn't that indicate a deeper problem than just the voice mode?
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 178 posts since 13 Dec, 2009 from Sweden
Thanks Fritze,
Unfortunately the workaround you suggested doesn't quite work, as that particular patch relies on the characteristics of the legato voice mode. But thank you for the suggestion nonetheless!
I'll be waiting to hear of any updates or news about this. Thank you for looking into this for me!
Unfortunately the workaround you suggested doesn't quite work, as that particular patch relies on the characteristics of the legato voice mode. But thank you for the suggestion nonetheless!
I'll be waiting to hear of any updates or news about this. Thank you for looking into this for me!
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- KVRAF
- 1888 posts since 13 Aug, 2011 from Berlin
Hi a-type,
we discussed it and this is the deal: We changed that note off behavior to get rid of some hanging notes. This problem is solved by the changes we made. That's the reason why we won't change this behavior right now. So right now the only way for you to get the former behavior is to use version 2.5.2.
we discussed it and this is the deal: We changed that note off behavior to get rid of some hanging notes. This problem is solved by the changes we made. That's the reason why we won't change this behavior right now. So right now the only way for you to get the former behavior is to use version 2.5.2.
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- u-he
- 30227 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Yes, sorry, Clemens and I discussed this. A "workaround for the workaround" clashes a bit with multicore, hanging note prevention and what not.
This is however an area that we want to rewrite anyway to accommodate the changes that happened in the past few years. So there's a good chance it'll be fixed, but I can't yet say when...
Urs
This is however an area that we want to rewrite anyway to accommodate the changes that happened in the past few years. So there's a good chance it'll be fixed, but I can't yet say when...
Urs