ACE base waveforms question

[c_voltage]

Hi
I finally got this really great tool, but I am interested in this moment:

Why is there are significant difference between ACE oscilloscope and daw analyzer?
(just in case, i tried different ways of generating square - vco,lfo,tap map - the same result)
And for example, I did the same with Bazille - as you can see there bazille analyzer shows true.

Screens:

ACE




Bazille

[Sendy]

There's a highpass filter after the oscillator and after the built-in oscilloscope. Fairly common practice in synth architecture to get rid of DC offset and unwanted low freqs which certain modulations can generate.

It's good that the built in 'scope is BEFORE the highpass filter as it can make waveforms hard to 'read' by adding curvature.

[Ch00rD]

[...]

It's good that the built in 'scope is BEFORE the highpass filter as it can make waveforms hard to 'read' by adding curvature.

I wouldn't mind having a pre/post HPF display option for the oscilloscope, though.

[c_voltage]

There's a highpass filter after the oscillator and after the built-in oscilloscope. Fairly common practice in synth architecture to get rid of DC offset and unwanted low freqs which certain modulations can generate.

It's good that the built in 'scope is BEFORE the highpass filter as it can make waveforms hard to 'read' by adding curvature.

I'm not very strong in this, important to make sure that it difference is normal. Just in case - all the waveforms shown here are generated by directly connecting to the VCA, with no filter (probably you what is meant is a some other "global" filter)
I also was thought that the generation of the form should not differ between the ACE and Bazille.

[Urs]

The actual highpass filter is part of the FX-section.

ACE 1.2 (available in the public beta thread and to be released in less than two weeks) has an option to turn the FX-section off. This makes the waveforms appear as raw on the outside as in the scope.

Mind you, the phase shift does something to the sound that I find pleasant.

[c_voltage]

Urs Thanks for the reply.
By the way - do not think that I was upset because of these nuances - no, just a regular interest.
Moreover, I afraid that as a result of any new reforms change the nature of authentic(including "artifact") ACE sound.
Ie I am for new modules and features, but with save current nature.
But I'm sure everything will be fine.
(And about sinus, must remain perfect (as is now) and untouchable!)

[Sendy]

By the way, about Bazille, it creates all it's waveforms out of pure sine waves, which is probably why it's waveforms are curvy and not linear. Phase Distortion is an interesting and complex topic but as a rought example: suppose you play back one quarter of a sine wave, from it's lowest point to it's highest point, and then loop that quarter - you end up with a sawtooth wave with an s-curve instead of a linear ramp.

[Adrian B]

I had wondered about this too, but when I saw switching effects off changed the waveform (even without any effects) I didn't pursue farther. Good to know the reason now.

[djscorb]

The actual highpass filter is part of the FX-section.

ACE 1.2 (available in the public beta thread and to be released in less than two weeks) has an option to turn the FX-section off. This makes the waveforms appear as raw on the outside as in the scope.

Mind you, the phase shift does something to the sound that I find pleasant.

Hi Urs

I was wondering about this as I've been getting heavily into ACE the past few weeks but also noticed that the output is high passed somewhat. I believe Filterscape VA exhibits this as well doesn't it?

You are right about the HPF adding something pleasant. A raw synth waveform sounds very unnatural and kind of hollow sounding (especially in headphones) and the phase shift from the filter brings it more into "reality" for want of a better description!

ACE is absolutely amazing btw, I love it and am only just scratching the surface. Is there any more info regarding the update and what is in store for ACE?

Cheers

Scorb

[djscorb]

By the way, about Bazille, it creates all it's waveforms out of pure sine waves, which is probably why it's waveforms are curvy and not linear. Phase Distortion is an interesting and complex topic but as a rought example: suppose you play back one quarter of a sine wave, from it's lowest point to it's highest point, and then loop that quarter - you end up with a sawtooth wave with an s-curve instead of a linear ramp.

I am obsessed with sawtooth waveforms as I make psytrance for a living and the bassline is pretty much just a sawtooth going through a 2 pole LPF with Envelope modulation. The curvature and symmetry is absolutely crucial for obtaining decent bass in this context. It can subtly change the relationship between fundamental and the harmonics which can make it slot into the mix more easily and needing less EQ / filtering to boot.

I'm looking forward to the new ACE as I'm sure there are many genius methods for altering the harmonic structure of saws.

Cheers

Scorb

[Sendy]

By the way, about Bazille, it creates all it's waveforms out of pure sine waves, which is probably why it's waveforms are curvy and not linear. Phase Distortion is an interesting and complex topic but as a rought example: suppose you play back one quarter of a sine wave, from it's lowest point to it's highest point, and then loop that quarter - you end up with a sawtooth wave with an s-curve instead of a linear ramp.

I am obsessed with sawtooth waveforms as I make psytrance for a living and the bassline is pretty much just a sawtooth going through a 2 pole LPF with Envelope modulation. The curvature and symmetry is absolutely crucial for obtaining decent bass in this context. It can subtly change the relationship between fundamental and the harmonics which can make it slot into the mix more easily and needing less EQ / filtering to boot.

I'm looking forward to the new ACE as I'm sure there are many genius methods for altering the harmonic structure of saws.

Cheers

Scorb

You should like the JP-8k oscillator stuff being added to Diva, then. It's sawtooth has a control for altering the curvature, which ultimately seems to only really change the level of the first harmonic (fundamental). You can modulate it and you get tremolo on the fundamental and everything from the 2nd harmonic upwards stays put. It's a very subtle effect considering how drastically the waveform changes.

[Urs]

ACE is absolutely amazing btw, I love it and am only just scratching the surface. Is there any more info regarding the update and what is in store for ACE?

The upcoming update is merely a maintenance update - we've had numerous threads about this, because it took us half a year to scan through dozens of reported niggles and feature requests from 4 years or so. We fixed a lot of oddities such a problem that caused Wacom tablets to issue a right-click, or some flaw that would cause "junked" presets to appear when flipped through presets.

The only niggles left are those that will be addressed by new features, such as the blurred interface on resize and seemingly random white lines. We might also add more wire rendering modes.

We have a bunch of ideas for future ACE updates, the main thing being a swappable filter module with a different character, maybe a guitar mode for users of Eigenharp or Seaboard, and so on, nothing face-lifting.

I don't think ACE needs any "big" changes in his feature set - ACE is probably the most consistent product we have. Very specific, very "rounded", very well defined, very happy as he is. In other words, ACE is low maintenance and not a diva

On the other hand, we see a chance on the horizon to actually build Berlin Modular, which would be an über-version of ACE. When I started mumbling about the concept of Berlin Modular a few years back, I soon realised that it's going to be too big and too bad on CPU to do anytime soon. Hence ACE, Bazille and Diva are all developments on the way, until a true modular synth with all exchangable analogue modelled components could be in reach. As we shyly mentioned elsewhere, if it ever happens, the cost of ACE would be fully deductable towards Berlin Modular

[djscorb]

Hi Sendy,

Thanks for the heads up.

I have used and borrowed various JP-8000s many times and love some of the textures from the cross modulation and feedback oscillator. Great for psy stuph. Is the new JP8000 stuff in Diva for supersaws or the feedback osc?

I almost never used the supersaw sound as that's more suitable for club trance / hands in the air shit than ripping futuristic psytrance.

I've been holding off trying Diva as I know I will end up wanting it. I want to get Zebra2 next so Diva will have to wait a while longer. Ace covers my needs for that juicy analog sound for the moment and from what I gather it seems more flexible.

I will definitely demo Diva once this new JP oscillator is added though, sounds right up my street. Doh! More stuff to buy!

Cheers

Scorb

[djscorb]

ACE is absolutely amazing btw, I love it and am only just scratching the surface. Is there any more info regarding the update and what is in store for ACE?

The upcoming update is merely a maintenance update - we've had numerous threads about this, because it took us half a year to scan through dozens of reported niggles and feature requests from 4 years or so. We fixed a lot of oddities such a problem that caused Wacom tablets to issue a right-click, or some flaw that would cause "junked" presets to appear when flipped through presets.

The only niggles left are those that will be addressed by new features, such as the blurred interface on resize and seemingly random white lines. We might also add more wire rendering modes.

We have a bunch of ideas for future ACE updates, the main thing being a swappable filter module with a different character, maybe a guitar mode for users of Eigenharp or Seaboard, and so on, nothing face-lifting.

I don't think ACE needs any "big" changes in his feature set - ACE is probably the most consistent product we have. Very specific, very "rounded", very well defined, very happy as he is. In other words, ACE is low maintenance and not a diva

On the other hand, we see a chance on the horizon to actually build Berlin Modular, which would be an über-version of ACE. When I started mumbling about the concept of Berlin Modular a few years back, I soon realised that it's going to be too big and too bad on CPU to do anytime soon. Hence ACE, Bazille and Diva are all developments on the way, until a true modular synth with all exchangable analogue modelled components could be in reach. As we shyly mentioned elsewhere, if it ever happens, the cost of ACE would be fully deductable towards Berlin Modular

Hi Urs

Thankyou very much for taking time to reply

Yeah, I don't think ACE really needs much else added in terms of features. Being able to turn the global effects off may be useful in some circumstances so that's cool in 1.2.

Alternative filter options would certainly be welcome and I would also like each oscillator/LFO to be less restricted in terms of waveform choice (having sine and triangle available for each would be useful for some patches).

ACE is a really complete product already that absolutely rips it! The GUI is beautiful The price is ridiculous too.

I can't wait to see what Bazille /Berlin Modular will be like. When I get time I will try the Bazille Beta

Thanks again

Scorb

[Sendy]

Hi Urs

Thankyou very much for taking time to reply

Yeah, I don't think ACE really needs much else added in terms of features. Being able to turn the global effects off may be useful in some circumstances so that's cool in 1.2.

Alternative filter options would certainly be welcome and I would also like each oscillator/LFO to be less restricted in terms of waveform choice (having sine and triangle available for each would be useful for some patches).

ACE is a really complete product already that absolutely rips it! The GUI is beautiful The price is ridiculous too.

I can't wait to see what Bazille /Berlin Modular will be like. When I get time I will try the Bazille Beta

Thanks again

Scorb

I've been secretly hoping for all four waveforms on both oscillators as well. Mainly so I can make triangle pads (all four oscillators playing triangles) and do FM and sync with sine waves, etc.