For the analog oscs, you can map the wave shape by host parameter mapping (Ableton Live macros, Maschine macros, novation automap and other host mapping etc.) since it's exposed to automation. The digital osc in Diva however is unavilable which is sad.
Could you expose the waveshape as an automatable parameter?
Cheers
Diva digital osc shape - no automation/mapping?
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Echoes in the Attic Echoes in the Attic https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=180417
- KVRAF
- 12065 posts since 12 May, 2008
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- KVRAF
- 5223 posts since 20 Jul, 2010
There's midi learn, don't know how much that helps you, but it works for the digital waveshape. Automation appears not to, though it works for everything else I've tried.
http://sendy.bandcamp.com/releases < My new album at Bandcamp! Now pay what you like!
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- u-he
- 30247 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
They are automatable. But because they came in later than the other oscillator parameters, they're pretty much at the bottom of the list, Params 264-266. That's for Shape 2-4 (Osc1 Ctrl2, Osc2 Ctrl1+2).
The first Ctrl of Osc 1 is identical with the normal PulseWidth control.
The first Ctrl of Osc 1 is identical with the normal PulseWidth control.
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Echoes in the Attic Echoes in the Attic https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=180417
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 12065 posts since 12 May, 2008
Weird. When I hit configure in Ableton Live and switch waveshapes, nothing shows up. I'm talking about the waveform selection, not the knobs.
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- u-he
- 30247 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Okay, I haven't looked into that. This might indeed be hidden from the host (yet should be MIDI controllable)Echoes in the Attic wrote:I'm talking about the waveform selection, not the knobs.
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Echoes in the Attic Echoes in the Attic https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=180417
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 12065 posts since 12 May, 2008
That would be great if you could unhide it from the host. Midi doesn't help with most hardware and macro mapping functions unfortunately (Ableton Live Racks, Maschine macros, Novation automap, Nektar plug-in mapping, Kore macros, Studio One parameter mapping etc.). Just about everything depends on parameters being host visible.
Cheers
Cheers
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- u-he
- 30247 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
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- KVRAF
- 4197 posts since 23 May, 2004 from Bad Vilbel, Germany
Use MIDI CC for now i.e. right-click, select MidiLearn...xmortenx wrote:Any workarounds???
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Echoes in the Attic Echoes in the Attic https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=180417
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 12065 posts since 12 May, 2008
Great, thank you.Urs wrote:Ok, added to our ever growing todo list
Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to unhide a parameter from hosts in general? For example Zebra doesn't expose some buttons like sync or the waveform type for the FM oscs and some others. But at least it shows mod sources and amounts and most other things. Many synths out there hide lots of parameters, which is unfortunate.
My general experience has been that developers have not been very responsive to requests to unhide parameters, which just doesn't make sense to me. Especially with the ever growing number of hardware and platforms that rely on host parameters. I've been a long time Novation automap user but I know a lot of people don't like the wrapper functionality but lately with increasing popularity of Maschine and things like Nektar controllers, with map to plug-ins based on exposed parameters, hopefully this need will get a little more attention.
So yeah, is this a difficult task to simply unhide parameters? I just don't understand why so many plug-in devs have to hide so many controls.
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- KVRist
- 228 posts since 26 Sep, 2013
this is also my observation. Luckily, Diva exposes exactly the parameters what I need to create a perfect controller. This is a bit rare, and one more reason for me to purchase Diva. In other words: what's the use of a good softsynth if you cannot control it externally? It may work fine in a studio environment where you have plenty (?) of time and a mouse to create new patches, but I'm probably too old or too old fashioned to do this in a live situation. There, I just want to edit a patch on the fly, using the knobs as well as the keyboard keys (or sequencer) to play the instrument.
I'm a very bad keyboard player, which explains why I mostly play with keys and knobs at the same time, changing the sound all the time, surprising me and the audience in each performance, changing the prepared song every time. Often I play without any preparation, and accessing the parameters is most important. Like vintage synths, Diva makes such intuitive and spontaneous performances possible thanks to hardware controllers or Lemur on the iPad.
Some parameters of the new Diva version are missing, but the most important ones (for me) are there. I didn't use the new modules a lot, which may change once they're all exposed to the DAW.
I'm a very bad keyboard player, which explains why I mostly play with keys and knobs at the same time, changing the sound all the time, surprising me and the audience in each performance, changing the prepared song every time. Often I play without any preparation, and accessing the parameters is most important. Like vintage synths, Diva makes such intuitive and spontaneous performances possible thanks to hardware controllers or Lemur on the iPad.
Some parameters of the new Diva version are missing, but the most important ones (for me) are there. I didn't use the new modules a lot, which may change once they're all exposed to the DAW.
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Echoes in the Attic Echoes in the Attic https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=180417
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 12065 posts since 12 May, 2008
Bump as I'm curious about Urs's take on this.Echoes in the Attic wrote:Great, thank you.Urs wrote:Ok, added to our ever growing todo list
Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to unhide a parameter from hosts in general? For example Zebra doesn't expose some buttons like sync or the waveform type for the FM oscs and some others. But at least it shows mod sources and amounts and most other things. Many synths out there hide lots of parameters, which is unfortunate.
My general experience has been that developers have not been very responsive to requests to unhide parameters, which just doesn't make sense to me. Especially with the ever growing number of hardware and platforms that rely on host parameters. I've been a long time Novation automap user but I know a lot of people don't like the wrapper functionality but lately with increasing popularity of Maschine and things like Nektar controllers, with map to plug-ins based on exposed parameters, hopefully this need will get a little more attention.
So yeah, is this a difficult task to simply unhide parameters? I just don't understand why so many plug-in devs have to hide so many controls.
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- u-he
- 30247 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
There's various things.
First off, the need to hide parameters has mostly historical reasons (for us). Back then Live could only "see" the first 128 parameters. Even worse, Logic 4 only saw 16. Thus one had to concentrate on the most important ones. Also, until MacOS X 10.5 or so Audio Units could behave erratic with more than 600 or so parameters. So there was plenty of reason not to show all parameters.
There's another reason to hide a parameter. If a parameter change requires a CPU intensive action, it might be necessary to keep changes in a low priority thread, i.e. user interaction with the UI. Some things simply can't be done upon parameter automation events - same for MIDI. Because those may come from realtime threads and thus certain tasks could crash the application.
Yet another reason: In VST2/3 one can not alter the range of a parameter without breaking compatibility to existing automation tracks. Hence any drop-down list that we might add new entries to (filter types, oscillator modes, modulation sources) must never be automated in VST.
Next, "inserting new parameters" as an effect of a feature request is a big burden for many developers. If a developer uses standard VST/AU methods to report parameters and handle presets then an inserted parameter will break compatibility. If precautions hadn't been taken from the planning stage of a plug-in, it's virtually impossible to insert new parameters. No worries, the rewrite of Zebra in 2004/5 was also related to fixing this problem.
Lastly, an unfortunate result of being able to actually unhide and insert parameters are the automation woes with ACE. From version to version people had to fix their automation tracks. The method we used to workaround this has been flawed, hence the problems and our reluctance to unhide more parameters.
We're currently testing a new method that can automatically move newly automatable parameters to the back of the parameter list. This would ensure compatibility to existing projects. However we have to be cautious before we use this excessively.
Cheers,
- Urs
First off, the need to hide parameters has mostly historical reasons (for us). Back then Live could only "see" the first 128 parameters. Even worse, Logic 4 only saw 16. Thus one had to concentrate on the most important ones. Also, until MacOS X 10.5 or so Audio Units could behave erratic with more than 600 or so parameters. So there was plenty of reason not to show all parameters.
There's another reason to hide a parameter. If a parameter change requires a CPU intensive action, it might be necessary to keep changes in a low priority thread, i.e. user interaction with the UI. Some things simply can't be done upon parameter automation events - same for MIDI. Because those may come from realtime threads and thus certain tasks could crash the application.
Yet another reason: In VST2/3 one can not alter the range of a parameter without breaking compatibility to existing automation tracks. Hence any drop-down list that we might add new entries to (filter types, oscillator modes, modulation sources) must never be automated in VST.
Next, "inserting new parameters" as an effect of a feature request is a big burden for many developers. If a developer uses standard VST/AU methods to report parameters and handle presets then an inserted parameter will break compatibility. If precautions hadn't been taken from the planning stage of a plug-in, it's virtually impossible to insert new parameters. No worries, the rewrite of Zebra in 2004/5 was also related to fixing this problem.
Lastly, an unfortunate result of being able to actually unhide and insert parameters are the automation woes with ACE. From version to version people had to fix their automation tracks. The method we used to workaround this has been flawed, hence the problems and our reluctance to unhide more parameters.
We're currently testing a new method that can automatically move newly automatable parameters to the back of the parameter list. This would ensure compatibility to existing projects. However we have to be cautious before we use this excessively.
Cheers,
- Urs