I need some help on the MReverb

[Alphacodex]

Hi Vojtech,

I want to use MReverb to change my workflow for my next film scoring project. I use a lot of different film orchestra libraries for that, an in the past I simulated the positioning by mainly those different steps:
- manual filtering high-frequencies to simulate a instrument being further away
- using a true-stereo IR and panning to get a horizontal distribution
- used custom set-up delays (one for each instrument) to further emphasize the stereo placement
- changed the relation between reverb and direct sound

Now my new idea would be:
- add 9 FX channels, each with a MReverb on it but completely set to ERs only
- make 9 presets for 3x3 rough positions in the room (front, mid, back) x (left, center, side)
- send each instrument to one of the 9 FX channels to get a first rough positioning
- fine adjust with per channel panning and volume
- send everything to my loved True-Stereo IR-Reverb where I cut away the ERs as good as possible to only let through the reverb tail

Ok... so far for the idea, but I dont really understand what the positioning editor in MReverb really does (the manual is quite short on that spot)

I can clearly hear an effect when I move the target symbol from left to right (how does it work, also with simple delays or is therermore "under thehood"?)However IO do not really hear a difference when movin nearer or further away. The high frequqncies dont seems to change, and I also cannot hear a difference in the ERs.
What effects does MReverb use to achieve the left-right and the near-far positioning (is pre-delay involved for example?)?

Thank you a lot!
Codex

[MeldaProduction]

Hi Codex,

MReverb basically exploits all the phenomenons you mentioned. I cannot tell you what it does exactly, but essentially it tries to compute what the nature would do. As for that you don't hear the difference - I just checked and there is quite a lot of filtering for distance. But note that most of the filtering is in the late reflections and it depends on the space size quite a lot. For example in the default active preset the room is about 5m and when you think about you wouldn't hear much difference in such a small room even in the nature. Early reflections are therefore naturally affected very little. But even if you choose such a room, you can still use the integrated equalizer to darken it more .

[Alphacodex]

Hi Codex,
MReverb basically exploits all the phenomenons you mentioned.

Ok, that's good to know, so it should work for my pupose.

I cannot tell you what it does exactly,

Because you don't know either or you dont want to tell...

As for that you don't hear the difference - I just checked and there is quite a lot of filtering for distance. But note that most of the filtering is in the late reflections and it depends on the space size quite a lot. For example in the default active preset the room is about 5m and when you think about you wouldn't hear much difference in such a small room even in the nature. Early reflections are therefore naturally affected very little.

Does that mean, when I only use the early reflections within MReverb (set it all the way to ER) I wont hear a lot of difference, because most of the filtering is applied to the tail? But aren't the left-right delay and the early reflections the main criterion for the human brain to jugde where a sound comes from and how far it is away?

Will my approach with the multiple sends set-up will work anyway or should I add an instance of MReverb to every channel to get the best positioning effects and then set dry/wet to maybe 30%


Cheers,
Codex

[MeldaProduction]

About I cannot tell you - both , the algorithm is really complex, so describing it in a few sentences is impossible. And I don't remember the details, so I'd need to walk through the source codes and I really don't have time for it, sorry

Anyway I just checked and even early reflections are affected by the filtering a lot. But everything depends on size of the room. Try this - open MReverb, set room size to maximum, and with whatever settings move with the position, you should clearly hear the difference. Anyway as I said, you can always use the build-in eq if the high end attenuation is not big enough.

MReverb was originally designed as insert, but I think your send system should work too.

[Alphacodex]

Ok I tried it that way, and I also used it as inserts on every instrument, with 15 instances the CPU hit in my test was still acceptable. From my testing the left-right effect is convincing and sounds a lot more natural to me than plain panning. However to be honest even with the maximum room size the effect for near- far is very subtle at most. Or maybe I'm just deaf When closing my eyes i could clearly make out whether an instrument is playing in the left-right spectrum, but I couldn't tell if one is further away than the other. I will try to do that next time listen to a real orchestra, maybe I can't tell it there either...
I also did a comparison to a free vst plugin called Proximity which does not do the left-right thing, but it does the near-far effects. It uses ER, high-freq damping. stereo width (plus some others, that I switched off because they dont make any sense for the purpose of mixing). The effect I could achieve with it was a bit more obvious than from MReverb but I could set larger distances (I think up to 200m), so that may be an explanation. (Is there a reason btw why MReverb is limited to 50m?)

Cheers,
Codex

Btw, I understand you dont want to analyse code to answer my questions Your customer support is exceptional anyway, so no need to apologize for that! I was just curious, what effects are simulated under the hood...

[MeldaProduction]

Well, 50m is usually way more than necessary. The high-end damping is a problematic issue, I'd rather the effect to be subtle, since you can always use the integrated equalizer to get "some more".
And thank you!

[Alphacodex]

I read about a new plugin project, that would revolutionize the way we are mixing now in another thread! Is Is it still alive? I have the same feeling, the way we are mixing today is still a relict of console mixing, I really wished there was soemthing else. The positioning in MReverb is already a small step in the direction I'm looking for.

Cheers,
Codex

[MeldaProduction]

Yes! But it's a secret, sssssshhhh!! It will take quite some more time, but I'd like to get onto it as soon as possible as I kind of need it (I'm too lazy to mix the classic slow way )

[Alphacodex]

I would help you testing, when you are ready for that! I'm really looking forward to change the way I do my mixing!

Cheers,
Codex

[Svama]

But the big secret is not mxxx or maybe some good improvements to it?

[MeldaProduction]

No! This is another secret . Damn, I need 100 hours per day

[Svama]

If you are working on a secret project that is f**king great. Love your new version 8 plugs.
Go on and let the magic become true.

[MeldaProduction]

Thank you!
Well, first MDrummer update, then I'm afraid the god damn AAX... It's so sad, that companies like Avid are slowing down the progress so much...

[Alphacodex]

Is the mixing system you are developing going into the direction of the Vienna MIR Positioning System? I'm still wondering whether I should find some solution that is already on the market or better wait for what you have in the pipe. However it's more like "years" until your product will come out I'd better find an alternative for the meantime.

Cheers,
Codex

[MeldaProduction]

Well, I have no information about MIR, so I cannot compare anyhow . And there's no release date, in fact the development hasn't even started yet, we still need to gather some more technologies. Though, there's a possibility, that first just the positioning multiplugin will be developed and released. But the actual marvel I'd like to focus on then should be much more than just spatial positioning of multiple tracks, it should cover the whole mixing. But no information about that now .