Mux Synth Beast - a crazy day of exploration

[Taron]

The following is almost a micro-diary of what I ran into, doing some sound designing with a little more complexity...


Am I crazy, or is there some real trouble, if you want to map pitch bend to additional parameters of a sound!?

- I should lead in with this: The moment you midi map the pitch bend control to any parameter, the default pitch change as defined in an oscillator will be ignored, particularly during recording, because it triggers the recording of the parameter and no longer the pitch bend input!

I've used stacking of targets inside a meta-parameter, separate meta-parameters, various changes of orders, but it absolutely always freaks out, at the latest when trying to record something.

The most promising result before recording was hooking an oscillator's pitch to a meta parameter and below it the other parameter I wanted to alter with pitch bending. While dialing things up and playing around to test it it worked just fine, but as soon as I started to record it... not only did it not record pitch, but the meta parameters change and then it kind of took the mapping of the second parameter and applied that to pitch of the oscillator... ah...it's really maddening!

I'm all ears for some advice, if there was any hope to begin with?!

[Taron]

Ok, somehow I have now one approach that SEEMS to work, but I'm already afraid to reload the project.

First parameter is pitch of oscillator, also mapped to pitch bend (don't ask!).
Second parameter is wave index, also mapped to pitch bend. (merged)

Right now it appears to record and playback correctly... we shall see!

[Taron]

Just so you know why I'm doing these "weird" things, here's what I'm trying to accomplish right now... it's kind of voice like synths, based on tiniest fragments of real voices.

It's actually good fun, if a few things were nicer and a few other things less strange, somehow.

Nicer: Mono legato glides would universally blend all things related to note heights. For example, I'm using the note conversion to control the wave index. Using legato, though, will ignore any following note height and therefore get stuck on the first triggered wave index. (not to mention the lack of velocity variation with proper gliding from note to note in that mode.)

Strange: Not sure what exactly is happening, but the LFO that was adding vibrato to the pitch frequency behaves very different, if you alter the pitch range and compensate with the LFO amplitude. ? It's really, really strange. What was previously a soft, typical vibrato then turns into something ...like a steap wobble as though it went from sine wave half way to pulse...eh...I can't decribe it, but it sounds weird.

[Taron]

Ok, I fill up my own thread here all by myself, but I'm basically just writing this as a curious report...

I've found what IS causing the weird vibrato on the pitch, but cannot explain why. It somehow only take the positive values from the lfo and doesn't swing into the negative anymore. I'm pretty certain it has everything to do with the meta parameter to which I had to stick the pitch bending. But since it goes from -200 to 200, I can't explain what might cut it off there?

This is all quite puzzling.

Well, at least the sound is in the above example project "Diana Legato", which is no longer mono or legato, because of the problems with it for this sound. I mean, it would make an amazing sound, but it sure isn't your run-of-the-mill synth concept.
If you asked me, though, it's an indication that a massive beast slumbers behind the mux polysynth. It's still a little young and cranky, but a few key improvements and it could be quite a contender out there.
As much fun as I'm having with it at some times, it also balances it out with some painful stuff that comes quite unexpected.

The meta parameter concept is brilliant, especially when you know NOT to use the meta parameters in the poly synth area, but one up in the parent modular area. Otherwise you're quickly in a world of hurt during recording. However, one has to learn not to use them before the sound is practically done, because those metas constrict the parameters they're hooked to in the nodes, reeking all sorts of havoc. The pitch stuff still puzzles me the most, though.
I'm afraid that I might figure out decent ways to wrestle this thing down, but by then I won't be of any help anymore to make this all act a bit more intuitively.
It could very well be that somehow cleaning up the order of things or simplifying controls by adding specific modules to read and modulate events or modulate modulations, would solve the wicked convolution into which one can stumble unbeknownst.
It is, though, a powerful beast that could totally rule, once untangled.

[MuTools]

Taron, calling for your help: Can you please make a patch as simple as possible that demonstrates the very problem, and describe the problem as brief, clear and purely technical as possible. I really have a hard time trying to digest your complex posts and to understand what you actually want to say. My apologies for my limitations.

[Taron]

WAH, please, focus on what you're doing right now!
When you're done and ready with your current list, let me know and I will compile a list on MUX synth stuff for you as clear as possible.
It's complicated stuff to describe though. I will make patches for specific matters then, too. But do not worry about it now, please!

Initially my post was a call for help on my pitch bend remapping issues. I didn't mean to distract you with development stuff just yet.

I'll have to investigate a bit more to make it as simple on you as possible, though!

Do you already have a way to display all the Midi Mappings of a patch? It seems like there is no overview for that, is there?

[MuTools]

WAH, please, focus on what you're doing right now! When you're done and ready with your current list, let me know and I will compile a list on MUX synth stuff for you as clear as possible.

If there is something wrong with the meta-parameters or LFO or... then i'm ready to take that report now. Bugs always get first priority.

Do you already have a way to display all the Midi Mappings of a patch? It seems like there is no overview for that, is there?

Yes in the options menu for that module -> Edit MIDI Controller Map. Note that each module has its own map. More info on that on http://www.mutools.com/info/docs/mux/us ... llers.html

[Taron]

AH, my god... I apologize for not seeing the MIDI controller map.

Let me play around some more, see if there's something else I've missed and then I'll come with details!

Thank you for your patience, Jo, you're awesome as always!

[Taron]

OK, I have ONE problem...
(see attached mux patch!)

Situation Setup:
- Oscillator Pitch is MIDI mapped
- LFO feeds into Oscillator pitch

Situation Action:
- use the pitch bend and you will hear that the LFO and pitch are combined and clipped at the maximum pitch range.

I understand some level of reasoning behind it, but it's totally impractical as far as I can tell. I expect the lfo to vibrate the current given frequency by a given amount. If I alter the current frequency, the lfo should vibrate on top of that. Pitch bending should alter the frequency just like playing another note! It normally does that, too, but not if you've midi mapped it!

[Taron]

Tell, if I'm wrong, please!
By default pitch bending is linked to the pitch of the oscillator at the given pitch range.
If I use Midi mapping to link pitch bending with any other parameter, like AIPS, for example, it overrides the default use, voiding it completely and then it only works on AIPS and no longer on the pitch of the oscillator.
I think, this is bad and unexpected.

[Taron]

I have found a ridiculous work-around, but firmly believe the above should be considered a bug, really.

The work around:
- add Constant Modulator
- Midi map pitch bend to the Constant Modulator
- Set the Contant Modulator's Midi map range to +-(100% - desired maximum amount of LFO)
- Hook Constant Modulator to Oscillator pitch input along with the LFO
- calculate desired pitch range/(100% - desired maximum amount of LFO)

example:
10% amplitude for LFO vibrato
Midi map range (100%-10%): -90% to +90%
Oscillator pitch range of 200 cents (200/0.9): ~222

conclusion:
hell no!

[runaudio]

is a device you are looking to share with us taron

[Taron]

Yes, runaudio, I absolutely do!

Oh, and here's one for the wishlist:

MultiForm Oscillator wave blending scheme based on "note" mapping like the multi sampler, except that it maps to frequencies (represented by keys). It then would blend between the entered waveforms.
That would be A KILLER, MONSTER FEATURE!

[AndreasD]

Ingenious as always, this man!

Taron, i loaded you test_voices project.
All is fine in my understanding. But how to you automate pitch?
I can see Mod Wheel working the LFO and the Wave Index automation, but I can't find anything that changes pitch during a note?! How do you do that?
And i did not see any pitchbend data in that project.

About adding various modulation sources and finding them clipping together, there is nothing you can do other than limit the sources so that if they add at max level, you destinaltion is not clipped.
This is a modular system. How could you possibly predict what values might come along.

About the MFO and note steps, have you tried to create a table with 127 steps and connect the Note to Modulation at 100%? You should have a 1:1 match (haven't tried though).

Your other zip file did not load, btw.

[runaudio]

look forward to it