I'm using Diva for an electric piano type sound.
The pianist is playing with quite a bit of sustain pedal, and the results are wrong in 2 different ways:
1. When playing a repeated note with the pedal down Diva (and other U-he plugins I have tried so far) adds new voices on that note until it runs out of voices. This may be useful behaviour for some synth tricks, but it is flat-out wrong for piano and there needs to be a piano/organ-poly mode that only allows one voice per note (not counting stacking defined in the patch obv). Most other plugins I have tried default to such a mode.
2. Even allowing for the behavior in 1, there seems to be a bug where notes get cut short on pedal release.
Consider this sequence of events:
- play a D
- depress the sustain pedal
- release the D key (note sustains)
- play the same D again (another voice starts on D so there are now 2 Ds playing as described above)
- release the pedal, with the D key held down.
logically in the scenario in 1 the first D that is being held by the pedal should stop when the pedal is released and the D that is still held down should continue. However sometimes both Ds are cut off when the pedal is released, even though the D key is still depressed. I think this counts as a bug rather than just unwanted behaviour.
To complicate this, it doesn't always happen. It is consistent for any given scenario, but varies according to tiny changes. for example starting playback of the midi at a different point will give different results (presumably due to different voice allocation) but starting at the same point will give the same result.
changing the number of poly notes also changes the appearance of the bug, I think even when the poly number is never exceeded! There are some scenarios in which more polyphony worsens the bug. (ie it is not stealing the cut short note)
It makes Diva unusable for playing piano, which is a shame!
I'd like to know if this will be a quick fix since I have a project waiting to find out if the epiano sound will be on Diva or if I have to make one some other way.
I have a example session prepared.
Can anyone shed any light on this? Anyone else having the same problem?
Diva 3304, OSX, reaper.
u-he plugins sustain pedal handling (Diva)(bug?)
-
Tom Drinkwater Tom Drinkwater https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=283090
- KVRist
- 90 posts since 26 Jun, 2012
Last edited by Tom Drinkwater on Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- KVRAF
- 24451 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
I don't think it's going to be a quick fix since u-he are moving offices at the moment.
That said, I don't recall of any analog synths which behaved the way you describe. That indeed makes sorta sense for piano sounds (although even on a real piano, when you repeat the same key under sustain pedal, you don't completely cancel the previously played key, you rather reinforce it, it's not a pure cancellation).
I would say use something else for EP sounds. Zebra is great at that, for example.
Personally, I'm much more annoyed by u-he plugins not playing in mono mode under sustain pedal correctly. It's impossible to hold one key and trill various notes so as to produce a guitar tapping effect - the pedal logic never returns back to held key. Which is how most real synths that I've ever played actually do (it's called last note priority with on-release retrigger).
That said, I don't recall of any analog synths which behaved the way you describe. That indeed makes sorta sense for piano sounds (although even on a real piano, when you repeat the same key under sustain pedal, you don't completely cancel the previously played key, you rather reinforce it, it's not a pure cancellation).
I would say use something else for EP sounds. Zebra is great at that, for example.
Personally, I'm much more annoyed by u-he plugins not playing in mono mode under sustain pedal correctly. It's impossible to hold one key and trill various notes so as to produce a guitar tapping effect - the pedal logic never returns back to held key. Which is how most real synths that I've ever played actually do (it's called last note priority with on-release retrigger).
-
Tom Drinkwater Tom Drinkwater https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=283090
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 90 posts since 26 Jun, 2012
Reinforcing a repeated note under sustain is the sort of thing thats only acheivable from a dedicated piano plugin or clever routing bult into the sound as it would have to be built into the sound in that a repeated note would add volume or affect some tonal parameter. It should be a assignable parameter rather than cause a whole new set of oscilltors to start up. Adding a whole new instance of the note is much further from a real piano than restarting it. In the end the piano only has one set of strings per note. However there are also cases, say when playng from a controller that has more than one key assigned to a given pitch, where starting a new instance of the note is exactly what should happen. I like this behaviour playing Snyderphonics Manta where I don't use a sustain pedal, but do have more than one pad on some notes, but hate it for conventional keyboard. There need to be different poly modes.
I own Diva but not Zebra, Actually I own kontakt/komplete and had started the project using the scarbee pianet but recently I've been realising that all the NI Kontakt piano and organ sounds, while appealing and expansive on their own, become mushy and unmixable in the mix with the whole ensemble.
Does Zebra NOT add voices on repeated notes on sustain pedal? I guess I should try the demo and see. Ace and Bazille seemed to be same as Diva.
I wonder if the pedal logic that's annoying you is related? Both problems could be construed as Diva forgetting which key is held when sustain pedal is on?
Offtopic, I'd love to see a U-he drawbar organ. Maybe they could collaborate with the VB3 people to get that updated and working properly again on osx.
I own Diva but not Zebra, Actually I own kontakt/komplete and had started the project using the scarbee pianet but recently I've been realising that all the NI Kontakt piano and organ sounds, while appealing and expansive on their own, become mushy and unmixable in the mix with the whole ensemble.
Does Zebra NOT add voices on repeated notes on sustain pedal? I guess I should try the demo and see. Ace and Bazille seemed to be same as Diva.
I wonder if the pedal logic that's annoying you is related? Both problems could be construed as Diva forgetting which key is held when sustain pedal is on?
Offtopic, I'd love to see a U-he drawbar organ. Maybe they could collaborate with the VB3 people to get that updated and working properly again on osx.
-
Tom Drinkwater Tom Drinkwater https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=283090
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 90 posts since 26 Jun, 2012
actually, if the actual note being cut short bug - the second point above - was fixed, I could probabaly find settings which were almost OK with the layering.
-
Tom Drinkwater Tom Drinkwater https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=283090
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 90 posts since 26 Jun, 2012
I installed Zebra, same bug with cut off notes, and I think the same layering effect.
-
- KVRAF
- 24451 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
My suggestion for Zebra was simply because it's way less CPU intensive so you can actually utilize full polyphony (16 voices) without your CPU sweating.
-
Tom Drinkwater Tom Drinkwater https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=283090
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 90 posts since 26 Jun, 2012
I have just realised, 2 modes are NOT required.
All that is needed is these rules:
* if a noteon is received while that note is being sustained by the sustain pedal then the note should be restarted.
* if a new noteon on the same note is received when a note is being held on by the key (only possible with multiple keyboards or alternate controllers or hand edited midi etc) then a new instance of the note should be created
* which notes are being sustained by the sustain pedal needs to be kept track of by voice/instance not by notenumber, so when multiple instances of the same note exist they respond correctly to the sustain pedal on an individual basis.
but first the actual bug of notes getting cut off by sustain pedal release even though the key is down needs to be fixed.
All that is needed is these rules:
* if a noteon is received while that note is being sustained by the sustain pedal then the note should be restarted.
* if a new noteon on the same note is received when a note is being held on by the key (only possible with multiple keyboards or alternate controllers or hand edited midi etc) then a new instance of the note should be created
* which notes are being sustained by the sustain pedal needs to be kept track of by voice/instance not by notenumber, so when multiple instances of the same note exist they respond correctly to the sustain pedal on an individual basis.
but first the actual bug of notes getting cut off by sustain pedal release even though the key is down needs to be fixed.
-
- KVRAF
- 4197 posts since 23 May, 2004 from Bad Vilbel, Germany
I was thinking the same. Thanks for the details, chaps!Tom Drinkwater wrote:I wonder if the pedal logic that's annoying you is related? Both problems could be construed as Diva forgetting which key is held when sustain pedal is on?
-
- KVRAF
- 26983 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
I agree about the note cutoff bug...Tom Drinkwater wrote:I have just realised, 2 modes are NOT required.
All that is needed is these rules:
* if a noteon is received while that note is being sustained by the sustain pedal then the note should be restarted.
* if a new noteon on the same note is received when a note is being held on by the key (only possible with multiple keyboards or alternate controllers or hand edited midi etc) then a new instance of the note should be created
* which notes are being sustained by the sustain pedal needs to be kept track of by voice/instance not by notenumber, so when multiple instances of the same note exist they respond correctly to the sustain pedal on an individual basis.
but first the actual bug of notes getting cut off by sustain pedal release even though the key is down needs to be fixed.
However, I like that you can play the same note more than once... I would rather not lose the current behavior (besides the note cutoff bug)
-
Tom Drinkwater Tom Drinkwater https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=283090
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 90 posts since 26 Jun, 2012
pdxindy - do you want to be able to play the same note more than once with the sustain pedal or by other means?
I also want to be able to play multiples of the same note from alternate controllers or multiple keyboards, just not with the sustain pedal...
I also want to be able to play multiples of the same note from alternate controllers or multiple keyboards, just not with the sustain pedal...
-
- u-he
- 30225 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Hehehe, it's the first time in 13 years that this comes up 
While I see the point and agree that something like a "don't double" polymode is desirable, we can't just switch to that - if only one out of a hundred people use sustain pedal, it would still break thousands of existing projects.
I'll add the note cutoff bug to the to do list and I'll try to figure something out for the general issue. Keep in mind though that voice management is the most intricate piece of code in our plug-ins, apart from, say, Diva filters, Satin and Zebra oscillators. We can only touch it very carefully and with a lot of time on our hands.
Cheers,
- Urs
While I see the point and agree that something like a "don't double" polymode is desirable, we can't just switch to that - if only one out of a hundred people use sustain pedal, it would still break thousands of existing projects.
I'll add the note cutoff bug to the to do list and I'll try to figure something out for the general issue. Keep in mind though that voice management is the most intricate piece of code in our plug-ins, apart from, say, Diva filters, Satin and Zebra oscillators. We can only touch it very carefully and with a lot of time on our hands.
Cheers,
- Urs
-
- KVRAF
- 24451 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Yeah, if anything, it should be an option, rather than the default.
However, the mono mode sustain pedal behaviour with note-off retrigger to previously held key is a MUST!
However, the mono mode sustain pedal behaviour with note-off retrigger to previously held key is a MUST!
-
Tom Drinkwater Tom Drinkwater https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=283090
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 90 posts since 26 Jun, 2012
thanks for looking at this Urs (and Howard)Urs wrote:Hehehe, it's the first time in 13 years that this comes up
yes I was amazed that this is not giving anyone else problems, I did search for it quite a bit before posting. I guess people just arent using u-he plugins to play piano.
that is sort of understandable for Diva, but it really surprises me if no-one is using any of the others in this way.
BTW I tested 4 or 5 other non-u-he plugins and while it was a very quick test and I might have missed somethng, none of them had either of the above issues. OTOH i think most of them wouldn't allow multiple instances of the same note which is a feature I really like - just not applied to the sustain pedal.
could it be as simple as adding a switch for "sustain pedal mode", retrigger note vs start new note.
would setting the sustain pedal to retrigger actually fix the early cutoff bug as a side effect?
-
Tom Drinkwater Tom Drinkwater https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=283090
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 90 posts since 26 Jun, 2012
should I send my example session to support@u-he.com or can you replicate the early cutoff bug ok?
BTW I'm no longer advocating a don't double polymode, certainly not as the only option, doubling when there are explicitly 2 noteons on the same note is fine and desirable. It doesn't get in the way of playing piano since a single piano keyboard can't create that situation. It is just the sustain pedal handling at issue.
as a workaround I'm thinking about making a JS reaper midi plugin that translates playing with sustain pedal into correct note on and offs that include the sustain with no sustain pedal in the midi, which I think the u-he plugins would handle fine. I suspect that pressure to get on with the recording and just use something else for now will mean it doesn't happen for a while though.
BTW I'm no longer advocating a don't double polymode, certainly not as the only option, doubling when there are explicitly 2 noteons on the same note is fine and desirable. It doesn't get in the way of playing piano since a single piano keyboard can't create that situation. It is just the sustain pedal handling at issue.
as a workaround I'm thinking about making a JS reaper midi plugin that translates playing with sustain pedal into correct note on and offs that include the sustain with no sustain pedal in the midi, which I think the u-he plugins would handle fine. I suspect that pressure to get on with the recording and just use something else for now will mean it doesn't happen for a while though.
-
Tom Drinkwater Tom Drinkwater https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=283090
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 90 posts since 26 Jun, 2012
From my ignorant standpoint of knowing nothing about the code I'm thinking at there's least 50% chance these are at root the same issue.EvilDragon wrote: However, the mono mode sustain pedal behaviour with note-off retrigger to previously held key is a MUST!