MeldaProduction

wildcafe · Post by **wildcafe** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:58 pm

Hi,

I'm looking for a linear crossover filter (like a Link-Riley filter). Is this achievable with any of your plugins?

I've tried it with some built-in eqs of Ableton Live, but each of them colors the signal.

I've tried the Ableton 3-band eq, the 8-band eq and the multiband compressor (which has built-in frequency separation).

Everytime I activate one of them, the volume of some frequencies gets a slight punch (which causes in the overall signal to distort).

If I try it with a sine ton (on and around the crossover frequencies), everything is fine, but as soon as I'm using it with a complex signal, the overall signal distorts.

Any tips on how to create a linear crossover filter?

MeldaProduction · Post by **MeldaProduction** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:32 pm

Hi,

sure, you are talking to the masters of multiband !!

It depends on what you want to do with it. The ultimate solution is MXXX. But we have a huge range of mutliband effects, all of them posses several types of crossover.

wildcafe · Post by **wildcafe** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:07 pm

Yes I know, but I'd like to make my own multiband effects with an audio rack within Ableton Live.
So I need an eq to just split up the frequencies (not more!).

I don't know if you know Ableton's built-in 3-band eq. Basically that's what I'm looking for, but this one changes the sound. I'd like one that's neutral, if you stack it on 3 bands (Link-Riley).

I've tried now several of your eqs and the one that gets closest to neutral is the MEqualizerLinearPhase if I use it on 3 separate chains, one with lowpass, one with highpass and one with high- and lowpass (for each band).
Disadvantage: latency and cpu consumption!

I'v also tried it now with MMultibandLimiter (without using the limiter, just for frequency separation), but this one also changes the sound.
And I've tried it with the Hornet3Xover...same result with raised volume on crossover.

I'd like to keep the original sound (and volume), but separate it into 3 frequency bands...

I've tested a whole bunch of plugins now and there're only two that can do this so far: MEqualizerLinearPhase (but it's latency) and iZotope Ozone 5 EQ (in digital mode)...but they're both too cpu hungry...any other proposals?

Soundplex · Post by **Soundplex** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:18 pm

I don't know if the FabFilter Pro-Q can do this, but the Pro-MB does. It originally is a mb compressor, but you can misuse it, like you would with your eqs.
Use it in linear phase mode, create a band and solo it, turn off its processing, done. If your chosen frequencies and slopes are the same, the sum of all splitted signals will end up 100% like the source signal. I tested this myself.

You also might take a look at BlueCat's MB-7: http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_MB7Mixer.

I don't tested this one http://www.delamar.de/freeware/robin-sc ... ilung-7719 but it seems to do also what you want.

MeldaProduction · Post by **MeldaProduction** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:22 pm

You can actually do that pretty simply with any of the multiband effects:

1) Put the effect on all of the tracks (one track for each band).
2) Enable band solo & band bypass in each of them, but everytime just one band.

The disadvantage is that if you change the crossover frequencies, you need to change them in each of them the same way.

wildcafe · Post by **wildcafe** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:34 am

Thanks for your tips.
Today I've spent several hours on testing and measuring many plugins and ways. Every plugin of the Melda multiband plugins has some kind of "overleveling" when used as described above.

You can see this effect of "overleveling" by using one instance of the plugin on one channel.
Just insert e.g. a MMultibandDelay and disable all delays. Take just 1 band and set all levels to 0dB.
Now set the channel's volume to 0dB and play some audio that reaches 0dB.
If you bypass the plugin, there's no difference to the original signal (both are NOT exceeding 0dB).
BUT: Then add 2 more bands (with separation at 250Hz and 2500Hz). So you only have the frequency splitting activated.
Bypassing the plugin -> 0dB.
Enabling the plugin: +1-2dB (distorted).

So your multiband separation isn't very clean and produces more level (while not making the perception of the signal louder).
This means for me using for example the MMultibandLimiter in Multiband mode I'm loosing 1-2dB headroom just by using the plugin in multiband mode...

Maybe you should refine your frequency splitting algorithm...or is there any way to prevent that?

I found 4 ways to achieve a clean frequency splitting so far.
I've mentioned 2 ways in a thread above (MEqualizerLinearPhase and iZotope Ozone EQ). The third way is using the built in 8-band eq from Ableton in all 3 channels (low, mid, high).
Important: you have to adjust the crossover frequencies to not overlap.
For example: in the mid signal section the high cut is set at 2200Hz while in the high section the highpass is set to 2500Hz.
I did the same with the MAutoDynamicEQ which resulted in similar results to the Ableton eq, although the Ableton eq is doing it slightly better (result sounds exact like the original while Melda colors the signal - maybe I have to fool around a bit more to find the correct settings).

Maybe I'll do a video to demonstrate everything...

Nspace · Post by **Nspace** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:04 am

This is a very interesting topic. I have been searching for such a crossover since the age of early pitch shifters (iex; good for Bass but harsh on Highs,etc.)... wait, they still give such indications! therefore always thought on processing bands with perfect surgical xovers, to then effect them separated and lastly join the resulting bands back.
The little related data that I've been able to see are the SRC measures at http://src.infinitewave.ca/
It has always shown Izotope's filters as the closest ones to the ideal filter. (check the Passband filter and contrast the results side to side for different DAWs and softwares). Another case to note is Ableton Live which has dramatically improved its filters quality since version 9.11.
I reckon those measurements could be applied to Melda, as it would show places to perfect, if it hasn't been done already.

wildcafe · Post by **wildcafe** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:59 am

The interesting thing is, measurements of sine sweeps are not meaningful.
At first, I've measured all the frequency splitters with a sine wave, which produced in most cases NO difference between the splitted and the bypassed signal.
As soon as you start feeding the filters with for example a square16 or square32, they start messing up the signal and distorting it...

I found another plugin, which is pretty good in frequency splitting, has FIR filtering with no latency(!!!), is free to download (Windows&Mac), BUT takes a lot of cpu: The "Slim Slower Side C3 Multiband Compressor".
If you put it on 3 channels, it takes around 5% cpu power (in Ableton) on my 2.9GHz i7 Macbook Pro

This one does the job best until now, but it takes too much cpu...

But now back to topic: is there a Melda plugin that can achieve this (with no latency)?

wildcafe · Post by **wildcafe** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:12 am

Just for your information: I've found a perfect solution so far.
I solved it using the free version of SplineEq. This one can be adjusted for low cpu consumption, no latency while having FIR filters activated. The result is very, very close to the original (also checked with MAnalyzer).
So for my own multiband filters this one will be used from now.

BUT: what about Melda multiband splitting and the overleveling? Will this be optimized so that we don't loose headroom anymore when using any Melda multiband plugin in multiband mode?

MeldaProduction · Post by **MeldaProduction** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:09 pm

wildcafe, the crossover algorithms are actually almost 100% clean and as far as I know these are the cleanest crossovers. You are just probably using it wrong. After all, take any of our multiband processors and try bypassing all bands (so that only crossover is processed). Now everything will be fine, why is that?

Anyway just send me a project in your host, I'll check and hopefully find what you are doing wrong.

jmg8 · Post by **jmg8** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:16 pm

wildcafe wrote:Hi,

I'm looking for a linear crossover filter (like a Link-Riley filter). Is this achievable with any of your plugins?

I've tried it with some built-in eqs of Ableton Live, but each of them colors the signal.

I've tried the Ableton 3-band eq, the 8-band eq and the multiband compressor (which has built-in frequency separation).

Everytime I activate one of them, the volume of some frequencies gets a slight punch (which causes in the overall signal to distort).

If I try it with a sine ton (on and around the crossover frequencies), everything is fine, but as soon as I'm using it with a complex signal, the overall signal distorts.

Any tips on how to create a linear crossover filter?

The increase in gain is coming from having the crossover at -3db rather than -6db.
If you load up MEqualizer (free) and select a highpass (12db/oct) filter at 1000hz and look at the level of the filter as it passes through the cutoff (1000hz) it is -3db. When added to a lowpass filter at the same frequency it creates a small gain increase.
Now if you right click on the band to open the band settings window and change the order of the filter to x2, you will see that the filter passes through the cutoff at -6db. This will give you a transparent crossover with no latency and very low cpu (plus its free too)

Gregorius · Post by **Gregorius** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:21 pm

Soundplex wrote:I don't know if the FabFilter Pro-Q can do this, but the Pro-MB does. It originally is a mb compressor, but you can misuse it, like you would with your eqs.
Use it in linear phase mode, create a band and solo it, turn off its processing, done. If your chosen frequencies and slopes are the same, the sum of all splitted signals will end up 100% like the source signal. I tested this myself.

Saw a video where someone did that with pro mb. Maybe it was you

Fabfilter has the most versatile and superb sounding crossover filters. You can change the slope per band and even to individual values like 17.13 db per octave and so on. And they add up to the original without worries

mesaone · Post by **mesaone** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:46 pm

Gregorius wrote:Fabfilter has the most versatile and superb sounding crossover filters. You can change the slope per band and even to individual values like 17.13 db per octave and so on. And they add up to the original without worries

Transparent and flexible aren't the same thing. That's not to say flexibility is bad for transparency, but the rule of thumb is 4th order linkwitz-riley is the most transparent filter to use for crossover applications like these because the phase shift between bands is 360 degrees.

MeldaProduction · Post by **MeldaProduction** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:12 pm

Well, I can only repeat

: Crossover for 3 bands:

1) Send your audio to 3 tracks.
2) Do this to them:
Track #1 - MMultiBandAutopan, any crossover, bypass and solo band 1
Track #2 - MMultiBandAutopan, any crossover, bypass and solo band 2
Track #3 - MMultiBandAutopan, any crossover, bypass and solo band 3

You can use any other multiband plugin, the crossover settings must be the same obviously. It will be perfectly transparent.

Soundplex · Post by **Soundplex** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:30 pm

Gregorius wrote:Saw a video where someone did that with pro mb. Maybe it was you Fabfilter has the most versatile and superb sounding crossover filters. You can change the slope per band and even to individual values like 17.13 db per octave and so on. And they add up to the original without worries

No it wasn't me

Yeah the complete free slope values rock!!!

MeldaProduction

KVR Audio

Multiband crossover filter?