Mackie and Ableton?

[christianmusicmaker]

I use Tracktion and Live 3 and wonder if Live 4 is now a rival to Tracktion what are your thoughts?

Did you upgrade to Live 4?

Are Tracktion and Live 4 the ultimate combo ...? (probably)

I will certainly get T2 either way...


In Live 4, you will find a complete and inspiring approach to MIDI sequencing, pattern recording, drag-and-drop sampling, virtual instruments (!) and MIDI hardware support. They have also made substantial extensions and enhancements to existing functionality, including such features as swing/groove for audio and MIDI clips, a powerful new channel-routing scheme, simplified recording, sample reverse, and several exciting new creative options for the Session View.

MIDI Tracks, Effects, and Instruments

MIDI sequencing in Live has been designed to get the user started within seconds. Software instruments appear in Live's built-in browser. Dragging an instrument from the browser into the mixer creates a MIDI track with that instrument, ready to play and record. MIDI effects and audio effects can be instantly dragged into the same track, without dealing with menus or abstract routing concepts. The signal flow within the track is intuitively set up by drag-and-drop. The Track View provides instant access to all controls of the instrument and the effects in the track.

Live 4 also includes the 'Simpler' sampling instrument which allows for instant sampling, polyphonic playback and creative exploration of any sound dragged into its display. 'Impulse' is a polyphonic percussion sampler with drag-and-drop sample import and powerful and innovative sound-shaping controls. In addition, Live hosts any VSTi or Audio Units (Mac OS X only) plug-in instrument. MIDI tracks with no software instrument deliver MIDI to external hardware synthesizers, ReWire client programs, or other MIDI tracks in Live. Live 4 also comes with 5 MIDI effects. The 'Scale' effect, for instance, forces incoming notes onto a chosen musical scale and fits well with 'Random', which creates specified random pitch deviations.

MIDI Clips

MIDI clips are created by recording or by dragging in standard MIDI files from Live's browser. Notes can be viewed, created and edited in the Clip View's note editor. When draw mode is engaged, the note editor behaves like a drum pattern interface, where a pattern step is set or cleared by a single click, and flams are crated by dragging across multiple steps. Unlike static drum grid or step sequencer interfaces, Live's flexible grid allows the user to change the step resolution at any time, for instance from straight to triplet notes.

MIDI clips, as audio clips, have their own loop settings. MIDI controller movements are represented as clip envelopes, which can be unlocked from the notes for creating independent movement. The same real-time options apply to MIDI clips as to audio clips: one can launch MIDI clips at any time, with real-time quantization preventing rhythmical error. MIDI clips can be assigned to computer keys or MIDI note ranges for jamming with musical phrases. MIDI clips can also be exported from Live as Standard MIDI files.

MIDI Recording and Patterns

Patterns can be built-up on the fly by overdubbing MIDI onto clips while they play in a loop. In conjunction with the integrated new 'Impulse' percussion-sampling instrument, Live exhibits the spontaneous creation options that are normally associated with hardware groove boxes. One can in fact use the computer keyboard to play Impulse's percussions and create grooves from the laptop alone. Standard multitrack linear-Arrangement MIDI recording and overdubbing is available as well.

Flexible Routing

New monitoring, track routing, and view navigation avail non-disruptive track setup and recording. Any track can feed and tap other tracks for submixes or layering as well as be routed to eight auxiliary sends per Live Set.

More new Features

Swing and Groove: Audio and MIDI clips support variable real-time swing and individual groove parameters.
Automatic Jamming. Audio and MIDI clips can be set to produce customized or even random sequences of loops or samples in Live's Session View. Great for generating new ideas, beat making, or advance preparation of a DJ performance.
Sample Reverse: single button can reverse any audio clip in real-time.
Session View scenes can change the project tempo.
Session View scenes can be set to advance automatically.
Audio performance has been optimized for Macintosh computers.

[ZooTooK]

Or is Live 4 a Tracktion killer....?

I suppose not as the price is 5 times higher, but aside from that?

[soma]

I think I'll try the demo but if the midi is as good as the audio... I may never use tracktion again. The only thing I'll miss is the rack filter and dropping effects on clips, but you know there are too many things in Live that I miss in tracktion to list. And now that Live has subgroups and Mod has made senderella I'm set.
$500 I think is a reasonable price (about the same as a snowboard and I use that maybe 100 days a year if I'm lucky; where as a great sequencer I probably use every day and make money back on).

[prupert]

if you ask me, Live should stick to what it does best, which is live playing of Audio loops. I think adding Midi to the picture makes it all a bit crazy.

So long as Tracktion gets some better time-stretching, I'll stick with it.

[dten]

I haven't bought either one yet. I was pretty set on Tracktion, but this announcement is making me reconsider.

The price difference is considerable, but for what you get... maybe it's worth it?

What does/will Tracktion offer that Live 4 doesn't have?

Live 4:
* VST
* AU !
* MIDI
* step sequencing
* real-time controls
* a very polished, elegant interface
* multi-track audio recording
* built-in sampler (> Tracktion, < Logic?)

... but does it include effects like Tracktion does?
... does it offer control surface support as T2 supposedly will?

[christianmusicmaker]

Or is Live 4 a Tracktion killer....?

I suppose not as the price is 5 times higher, but aside from that?

Tracktion Killer...? Well...I think there are many views on that one although I see Tracktion as being almost between versions as I would confidently say that T2 will be out in the next 3 to 6 months and then T2 versus Live 4 may shed more light on wether or not it really replaces Tracktion.

I think for now though as a combo they are awesome.

I think I'll try the demo but if the midi is as good as the audio... I may never use tracktion again. The only thing I'll miss is the rack filter and dropping effects on clips, but you know there are too many things in Live that I miss in tracktion to list. And now that Live has subgroups and Mod has made senderella I'm set.
$500 I think is a reasonable price (about the same as a snowboard and I use that maybe 100 days a year if I'm lucky; where as a great sequencer I probably use every day and make money back on).

I think Ableton caught the big boys out. I think the competition knew they might include midi functionality but not like this.

Considering how groundbreaking Tracktion was (and still is) in comparison to what was on the market at the time it first came out, I am sure Jules has an equally grand plan for T2 feature wise. It would be good to see some specs though...but I know the Mackie policy will not allow it.

if you ask me, Live should stick to what it does best, which is live playing of Audio loops. I think adding Midi to the picture makes it all a bit crazy.

So long as Tracktion gets some better time-stretching, I'll stick with it.

I still think many like me will get T2 either way but companies like Ableton have to move with the changing landscape.

I guess they thought a small incremental upgrade would not be good enough for the next 12 months and have gone all out to ensure they remain competitive.

[christianmusicmaker]

I haven't bought either one yet. I was pretty set on Tracktion, but this announcement is making me reconsider.

The price difference is considerable, but for what you get... maybe it's worth it?

What does/will Tracktion offer that Live 4 doesn't have?

Live 4:
* VST
* AU !
* MIDI
* step sequencing
* real-time controls
* a very polished, elegant interface
* multi-track audio recording
* built-in sampler (> Tracktion, < Logic?)

... but does it include effects like Tracktion does?
... does it offer control surface support as T2 supposedly will?

...

Tracktion has...

1.VST + VSTi funtionality

2.AU? Don't know maybe the Mac version has. Jules Tracktion Mac users?

3. Midi > yes.

4.Step sequencing...it has a Piano roll which I use as a step Sequnencer but there are inexpensive plugs..Stepchild (free) and ERA that will provide this for you in Tracktion now.

5.real time controls - more details please?

6.Tracktions interface for me is superb.

7.Multitrack Audio editing > yep that too.

8.Sampler > yes.

Check out my original post on this thread and read through for all the latest details on Live 4. I would go to the Mackie site and check out the Tracktion specs as well in detail.

[valley]

Tracktion Killer...? Well...I think there are many views on that one although I see Tracktion as being almost between versions as I would confidently say that T2 will be out in the next 3 to 6 months and then T2 versus Live 4 may shed more light on wether or not it really replaces Tracktion.

Without knowing how many mackoids are working on development - it is not inconceivable that Tracktion development is still an entirely one man show, the chnaces of Tracktion being able to keep pace with Live4, and even keep ahead of Podium are hard to guess. Assuming Jules is still the main coding input though, it is unlikely that Tracktion will hold up well against Live4.

Considering how groundbreaking Tracktion was (and still is) in comparison to what was on the market at the time it first came out, I am sure Jules has an equally grand plan for T2 feature wise. It would be good to see some specs though...but I know the Mackie policy will not allow it.

In practical terms, T2 has a lot of basics to get right before adding anything major. The only two 'killer' features that Tracktion could add that will get people to sit up and take notice are video support and hardware controller support. Mostly Tracktion needs to do what it does now a liitle better.

Better quality audio stretching would be a big gain too, but I doubt it would be enough to make people come to Tracktion, it'd just stop them wandering away from it.

Tracktion's main advantage is still price.

If T2 fixes everything that is currently not quite finished in T1, adds hardware controller support, and incorporates a decent commercial time stretch algorithm then the budget Cubasis market sequencers are in a lot of trouble. Is Live does the damage higher up in the market that it's starting to sound like it might do, then there are going ot be some worried sequencer companies out there.

[pHz]

Tracktion's main advantage is still price. If T2 fixes everything that is currently not quite finished in T1, adds hardware controller support, and incorporates a decent commercial time stretch algorithm then the budget Cubasis market sequencers are in a lot of trouble. Is Live does the damage higher up in the market that it's starting to sound like it might do, then there are going ot be some worried sequencer companies out there.

this is the REAL killer point of the whole debate i think ...

... im real excited about live4 since it may well make my recent purchase of fl-studio a little redundant (and id already moved away from tracktion to some extent) ...

... but if you see T2 and L4 (you sunk my battleship !!! ) along with maybe podium and energyXT as the next wave of sequencers (clean slates - new ways of working - streamlined workflow - etc) then the big established names at all current levels of the host / sequencer market MUST be getting pretty fidgety about now id have thought ...

... if live4s pattern sequencers for MIDI work as well as live3s audio capabilities then even the soft studio devs (fl / orion / P5 / even reason / etc) might be feeling their palms starting to sweat too (although they will obviously still have a price edge - anyone fancy a slimmed down cheaper version of live4 though ??? )

this is going to be a MIGHTY interesting few months ...

slainte rob

[ModuLR]

Live4 definately raised my eyebrow. Those additional features are pretty hardcore... and the idea of processing midi in a fashion similar to the audio sounds pretty tempting. The pattern editor sounds sick too! I'll definately be checking it out without question.

HOWEVER... I don't think it would cause me to give up on tracktion at all. Why? Because navigating in tracktion, IMHO, is better much than in Live. Just the mere fact that Live doesn't support the mousewheel drives me insane. I hate zooming in live, I hate the way the playback pointer works, I hate trying to edit audio on the timeline, and I don't think editing automation is nearly as elegant as Tracktion (even tho, T needs some work). In that regards I find tracktion much better (even in it's current state). Although I really do like Live's clip features. So basically, I like Live for it's Live performance aspects.. but when it comes to editing an actual arangement, I'll most likely still prefer tracktion because it just feels effortless... much like Live is effortless at composing live. Also live won't have the racks.. which I find to be an experimentalist dream. I know we can load eXT into a channel, but it's just not the same. Also, one other thing is that after a while, I get tired of that "Live" sound.. and I think ya'll know what I'm talking about. You can listen to a Live track, and many times instantly know it's a byproduct of the software. It has some of the MOST identifiable timestretching algos out there... and considering it's popularity... many times you just instantly know it was composed in Live.

In any case, I could see building certain arrangement with Live.. then rendering everything into tracktion for some serious editing, tweaks, and what not...

but then again, who knows... can't really knock it until I have a beta in hand!

My $.02 on it...

[ModuLR]

if anything, I think eXT is more of a threat to Tracktion than anything else. It's getting an large number of new features weekly, it's pretty damn stable, it has a modular environment, you can compose in a clip based fashion (even automation! ), and if you are clever, you can compose midi with it LIVE (right now) and it's $40 cheaper.

Jorgon is doing a killer job on it!

[RandyHancock]

I think Tracktion still has a lot going for it over Live with regards to composing a single song. I agree with much of what ModuLR says about the zooming etc.

Live is software for doing live sets and always will be. Therefore it will always compromise certain things to maintain the 'live set' focus. I think Live is good in the studio for coming up with ideas quickly, but it's not so great for composing full songs from beginning to end like Tracktion is.

The people that will be affected will be the people that are interested in live sets already, but don't use Live for composition because of the lack of VSTi support. There is a big advantage to not having to convert your songs from one host to another before a gig. Other than for these people, I don't see Live 'killing' Tracktion in the least.

my 2 cents...

Oh and btw, as a programmer, I have seen people that are capable of creating software at 5-10x the speed of other developers. Just because Ableton is a big(ger) company and has more people programming, it doesn't mean that there isn't a genius dev out there that could program circles around a team of so-so or even decent coders. A lot of human inefficiencies are eliminated when you don't have to collaborate on a project.

[Sleepwalker]

Live 4 announced!

hardware support!!!

Dragging an instrument from the browser into the mixer creates a MIDI track with that instrument

MIDI effects and audio effects can be instantly dragged into the same trackrouting concepts.

'Impulse' is a polyphonic percussion sampler with drag-and-drop sample import and powerful and innovative sound-shaping controls. In addition, Live hosts any VSTi or Audio Units (Mac OS X!!) plug-in instrument. MIDI tracks with no software instrument deliver MIDI to external hardware synthesizers.

Live 4 also comes with 5 MIDI effects. The 'Scale' effect, for instance, forces incoming notes onto a chosen musical scale and fits well with 'Random', which creates specified random pitch deviations.

the note editor behaves like a drum pattern interface. Unlike static drum grid or step sequencer interfaces, Live's flexible grid allows the user to change the step resolution at any time, for instance from straight to triplet notes!!

MIDI controller movements are represented as clip envelopes, which can be unlocked from the notes for creating independent movement.(modulation is locked to clips! )

real-time quantization!!! MIDI clips can be assigned to computer keys or MIDI note ranges for jamming with musical phrases!!!

Patterns can be built-up on the fly by overdubbing MIDI onto clips while they play in a loop. In conjunction with the integrated new 'Impulse' percussion-sampling instrument, Live exhibits the spontaneous creation options that are normally associated with hardware groove boxes. One can in fact use the computer keyboard to play Impulse's percussions and create grooves from the laptop alone!

Audio and MIDI clips support variable real-time swing and individual groove parameters.
Automatic Jamming. Audio and MIDI clips can be set to produce customized or even random(!!!) sequences of loops or samples in Live's Session View. Great for generating new ideas, beat making, or advance preparation of a DJ performance. !!!

Audio performance has been optimized for Macintosh computers. !!!!!!

Dam, Ive got to have this.
Im on a mac lappy, and must say im almost speachless.

The fact that it is optimized for Macs Velocity Engine in the prosessors, makes it the only one in class, besides Logic and Numerology, as far as I know. Witch is a great pluss, becaus as all knows, Macs laptop processors are much smaler then whats offered in the PC world. This will make the hard cash spent on the mac, more worthy. In other words, you can use much more vst/vstis at the same time on the G3/4/5!!

Among a lot of other things, the jamming part of midi makes me drewl, its just what ive been looking for a long time. Finaly you can jam around your rythm ideas fast, and LIVE!! (aposed to just jaming with one instrument at a time)

I feel a strong relationship to Tracktion, but this made some serious considerations for me.

But I see the points over here, I might get bouth Live 4 and T2...

But from a Mac laptop perspective, this is simply awsome!!!

[AD80]

You know, I'm starting to get jealous of all these other sequencers getting updates. L4, Logic, Ext (ofcourse), Cubase, they've all had updates lately. Wheres our update ?

I never worked with Live or even tryed the demo. But L4 looks pretty awsome on paper. I might have to try it and see what all the fuss is about.

[braj]

I think everyone needs to remember Live4 is more than 5 times Tracktion's price. They can't really be fairly compared. That said, I think Tracktion would still be my choice for sketching quick 'notes' etc no matter how cool any other app may be. It is just the most intuitive DAW I've found that still retains a pro level of features.