Moving TO Reason from Ableton - should I?

[GreatExpectations]

I've been an Ableton live user since I began music production about 6 years ago and it's the only DAW I've ever used. Recently I've become uninspired/bored by Live and have been considering a change. I've been looking at Reason 9 and just downloaded the demo. One of the appealing things about Reason is that it is all self contained and limited in terms of 3rd party vsts and effects - I definitely feel overwhelmed at times with Live. Some of the Reason workflow also looks really smooth, particularly the Rex player. Integrating with Live further down this line also looks straight forward.

Has anyone made the same transition of DAWs? How different is the Reason workflow compared with Live? What might frustrate me? Any videos that might help me decide?

Cheers

[thecontrolcentre]

Are you sure your boredom, and lack of inspiration is connected to your DAW? I'm a long time Live user, and when I feel inspired to write something I find having a DAW that is familiar to me extremely helpful. YMMV.

[xbitz]

will be very similar as is in Live (-VSTs and the Session view + cables in Reason), if u need inspiration maybe worth to check a different tracker based approach> Renoise (tracker)

playing with a random sample, just the basic things> too see how can split any sample and trigger the splitted fragments with different fx routes or playing them back and forth


as u can see it has totally different workflow, but IMO much funnier or natural than in any piano-roll based DAW

or a longer one (it's an older Renoise version)

[jjpscott01]

If it helps at all, I use several DAW's and always find myself getting more done in Reason. The stability of course helps but I do personally find it the most inspiring to work with.

[bmrzycki]

One of the appealing things about Reason is that it is all self contained and limited in terms of 3rd party vsts and effects

The default devices haven't had any meaningful additions since Reason 6.5 in 2012. If you move to Reason expect to pay to upgrade the DAW *and* for new devices Propellerhead makes. The PHeads also charged for their first RE update (Parsec) so don't think that buying a device once means upgrades for free forever.

You can't sell REs if you sell your copy of Reason. Some developers give discounts/crossgrades if you already own the VST version of a tool. But not all, so check with the owners of what you have already. If you're patient the store does occasionally do sales too. You might end up having to re-purchase things you already have as non-RE devices.

I've used Reason in the past for it's software-modular feel. I never liked the sequencer and I find it frustrating to quickly edit MIDI phrases. These are personal preferences and I recommend you demo it as much as possible to make sure you like it.

I definitely feel overwhelmed at times with Live. Some of the Reason workflow also looks really smooth, particularly the Rex player. Integrating with Live further down this line also looks straight forward.

My preference between the two is Live's loop slicing/editing. Frankly I find the Reason samplers NN-XT and NN-19 to be less than great. The best pitch shifting in Reason is in the audio editor window. For me this means I prefer to pitch shift in the sequencer and then manually import the wavs into the samplers. It's tedious and I tend not to use it. Another thing is the older devices only have 0-127 integer ranges for parameters which can lead to audible stepping when automating some parameters.

Has anyone made the same transition of DAWs? How different is the Reason workflow compared with Live?

Reason's strength, IMO, is the patching system, combinators, and multiple use devices. Live's strengths, IMO, are clip launching and if you prefer the "grid-style" workflow Reason doesn't have anything natively comperable.

What might frustrate me?

No VSTs: all the stuff you own now won't work in Reason. The ReWire protocol is clunky and if you have half your song in Reason and half in another DAW it kills workflow (for me at least). Don't expect the included synths/effects to sound as good as current generation VSTs: some like Subtractor and Malstrom haven't changed in over 10 years. You'll probably end up buying several REs to compensate once you discover module X, Y, or Z just isn't what you were expecting. Expect fewer RE releases versus VSTs: you'll have a smaller pool of 3rd party devices available to you when you do decide to buy. This includes sample libraries now that most are designed around the Kontakt player and less around NN-XT. If you really get into Rex loops expect to pay more for a program called ReCycle to edit and make your own loops. It's still $200! Device resolution: as I said before a lot of the devices only have 0-127 for the range of the knobs. This also includes one very important device: Combinator's macro knobs. This means if you decide to setup macros like Live's Racks you'll find the knobs will produce audible stepping even when automating newer REs that have better parameter ranges.

Demoing REs might annoy you, it sure annoys me. They're ONE time and they are time-limited. This means if you start the demo of a device and something in the real world gets in the way you're losing that demo time. When it runs out the only option is to purchase. This is also true if you demo a v1 device and don't buy but later wish you could demo the v2 upgraded version that addressed your concerns. As far as I know there's no way to "reset" a demo of an RE.

I can't stress enough to demo, demo, and demo it some more. The trial never expires except you can't re-open saved songs.

[xbitz]

it's a second hand info, but maybe can help to see how the things are go in Reason (Published on 2 Nov 2016)

[flugel45]

...No VSTs: all the stuff you own now won't work in Reason. The ReWire protocol is clunky and if you have half your song in Reason and half in another DAW it kills workflow (for me at least)...

Most of your explanation was spot on, but the above statement is not entirely correct.

From Reason 7 and later, there's an external midi out feature that not a lot of people use - I suspect because it hampers the workflow - but it does let you use VSTs (or external hardware synths), driven by Reason's sequencer. Here's a YyouTube vid that shows it done on a Mac (It's pretty much the same on a PC):



The easiest way is to use the standalone version (if available) of your VST, but you can also go with something like VSThost for plugins.

And it doesn't have to slow down your songwriting/producing workflow. You can use Reason instruments during the songwriting-tracking stage, then render using your better-sounding VIs. Hello there, Superior Drummer, Kontakt (with any library), Diva, etc....

There are many YouTube tutorial vids on how to do this, but it's pretty clear a lot of these users just stumbled onto this feature, thinking they've figured out a hack, and it's unfortunately presented that way -- in some cases showing unnecessary, convoluted or even wrong steps. It's no wonder this ability is either ignored or unknown by longtime Reason users, when it's simply just another little-touted feature that expands the Reason world considerably.

And why is it little-touted by Propellerhead? It's not hard to understand why. If a user from a conventional DAW background can use all of his VSTs, why would he need to buy Rack extensions...?

[jabe]

I've been an Ableton live user since I began music production about 6 years ago and it's the only DAW I've ever used. Recently I've become uninspired/bored by Live and have been considering a change.

Cheers

There are ways round feeling overwhelmed and uninspired. If you're like me (and many others, I suspect), you'll have a million (mostly free) plug-ins and will have never used many of them. So you could select just a few to use on a project, but perhaps not your usual ones. Limit your options and it can take away that overwhelmed feeling. You could choose the plug-ins at random. Roll a dice or pick names out of a hat. How do you start a track? Find out how others start and do it a different way to your usual way. Try a different genre. Start with lyrics. Take an existing song title and alter one word. Borrow an unfamiliar instrument from a friend. Ask someone for a theme to write about.

Feeling uninspired or stuck is a common problem. Brian Eno came up with a set of cards (Oblique Strategies) from which he'd randomly pick one to give him a push, often in an unexpected direction. Handily for us, there's now a website that will choose a card for you.
http://stoney.sb.org/eno/oblique.html

[Lejurai]

I've been an Ableton live user since I began music production about 6 years ago and it's the only DAW I've ever used. Recently I've become uninspired/bored by Live and have been considering a change. I've been looking at Reason 9 and just downloaded the demo. One of the appealing things about Reason is that it is all self contained and limited in terms of 3rd party vsts and effects - I definitely feel overwhelmed at times with Live. Some of the Reason workflow also looks really smooth, particularly the Rex player. Integrating with Live further down this line also looks straight forward.

I'd keep ableton and buy reason to accompany it. Personally Reason is my main DAW, but I also have Bitwig for my vst collection and for that "different workflow" (sequencer view I use in Reason and clipview in Bitwig). Reason has almost all the tools you need (or a way to do things you want with different tool), but sooner or later you'll buy REs that makes your life easier and are higher quality than stock devices.

Has anyone made the same transition of DAWs? How different is the Reason workflow compared with Live? What might frustrate me? Any videos that might help me decide?

Cheers

The main difference is that you'll have to work more with cables, dragging stuff around.. But when you wanna go creative and not in a hurry to lay down an idea, Reason is superb, thanks to modular type of cable work. Only thing that really annoys me sometimes is sidechaining. Of course that can be done in several ways but it can be a bit slow when not using the virtual ssl desk. Though there's a pumper RE that costs 19€ that will work for you

[bmrzycki]

From Reason 7 and later, there's an external midi out feature that not a lot of people use - I suspect because it hampers the workflow - but it does let you use VSTs (or external hardware synths), driven by Reason's sequencer.

I don't think I was clear enough as to why I find ReWire (or MIDI external) are workflow killers for me.

As you said it can be done and I have used almost all incarnations of the following:

DAW (Reaper) + Reason (ReWire Slave)
Reason + .wav stems generated from VSTs in Reaper
DAW (Reaper) + Reason external midi using virtual MIDI bus

Every one of these made me frustrated and just wanted all my devices on one side or the other.

For the first case the biggest problems came from shared modulators (wanting an LFO to control the same synth Thor and an external Omnisphere pad) or routing audio out of Reason, into my DAW for an effect and then mixing back into Reason. I spent a lot of time patching cables and switching between multiple windows.

The second one killed inspiration. Freezing tracks during composition / playback caused me to abandon a few ideas (I may return to them someday).

In the last case I had problems with hanging MIDI notes and double notes. The more I used the bridge the worse it got. I tried both loopmidi and midiox. It was also inconvenient that Reason couldn't access my audio interface while my DAW was open.

Frankly it's a pile of hacks and workarounds and I'd rather not deal with it. Which is a shame: Reason can be a lot of fun to explore.

[xbitz]

and don't forget can control(automate) any stock devices using

[elxsound]

Are you sure your boredom, and lack of inspiration is connected to your DAW? I'm a long time Live user, and when I feel inspired to write something I find having a DAW that is familiar to me extremely helpful. YMMV.

This.

[ghettosynth]

From Reason 7 and later, there's an external midi out feature that not a lot of people use - I suspect because it hampers the workflow - but it does let you use VSTs (or external hardware synths), driven by Reason's sequencer.

I don't think I was clear enough as to why I find ReWire (or MIDI external) are workflow killers for me.

As you said it can be done and I have used almost all incarnations of the following:

DAW (Reaper) + Reason (ReWire Slave)
Reason + .wav stems generated from VSTs in Reaper
DAW (Reaper) + Reason external midi using virtual MIDI bus

Every one of these made me frustrated and just wanted all my devices on one side or the other.

For the first case the biggest problems came from shared modulators (wanting an LFO to control the same synth Thor and an external Omnisphere pad) or routing audio out of Reason, into my DAW for an effect and then mixing back into Reason. I spent a lot of time patching cables and switching between multiple windows.

The second one killed inspiration. Freezing tracks during composition / playback caused me to abandon a few ideas (I may return to them someday).

In the last case I had problems with hanging MIDI notes and double notes. The more I used the bridge the worse it got. I tried both loopmidi and midiox. It was also inconvenient that Reason couldn't access my audio interface while my DAW was open.

Frankly it's a pile of hacks and workarounds and I'd rather not deal with it. Which is a shame: Reason can be a lot of fun to explore.

I agree for the most part. One thing that I've found is that if you treat your plugins like external hardware, it often works better. That is, run them on a different computer with its own audio interface and midi ports then treat that computer like any other external synth. Yes, you have to deal with all of the headaches of dealing with hum and cabling, welcome to the way everything was back in the day, hey!

I've never got on with Rewire, things just seem to crash more often and it goes the wrong way for me, what I like about Reason is the sequencer, not the synths, for the most part.

[Andrei Marchenko]

Man, this is not ovewrhelmed Live it's just you and your mind. That's how you think about program and that's all. Just relax and go fo a walk Or if you want to change the way how you think about music production - Renoise. Switch between Live and this one when you feel borred.

P.S.: Reason with PH politics - it's not the way, trust me.

[incubus]

@OP: I did almost 2 years ago. Loved it. Not so happy with the V9 update though (yes, I said update) Live just became way too limited in the audio department. I need something in the editing department.

But still 8.3 has been great. One thing to watch out for though is RE's. They add up (even though I've gotten almost all of mine on sale)