Hey I'd like to start a little discussion about the time in daws.
At the moment I don't see any daw that does it right. My hope is that Bitwig won't implement it like other daws.
Some first thoughts:
- I do an tempo-free improvisation and record notes + automation -> can there be a way that the arrangement can adopt to that free tempo
- how can a daw detect/extract a free tempo automation from an recorded improvisation?
- I do multiple free improvisations like this -> can there be an intuitive tool that lets me edit/stretch the tempo or the arrangement or individual clips, how can I bring together/layer files with different timings?
- more Bitwig-specific: could there be different tempo/time signatures in different track groups/single tracks
- can there also be sections in a song where there is no beat?
- if there is tempo automation in a track -> can there be two different view modes? (one where the bars&beats have equal distance on the screen + tempo automation, one where you see the real time so bars&beats are stretched on the screen according to the tempo automation)
- for film composers - they also might want an intuitive and flexible way for handling tempo and timing
- despite all free tempo/timing dreams - I still want to have beats and bars. can there be a greater concept which includes bars&beats as a special case?
To make it clear: I don't wish only a simple discussion about features, but also about the whole concept and maybe also the cultural aspects that are related to it.
Latest News: Bitwig updates Bitwig Studio to v5.1
About tempo and timing, bars and beats
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1350 posts since 31 Mar, 2014
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- KVRist
- 180 posts since 18 Apr, 2014
oof, thats a lot.
I'm also wondering if there's a way to "extract" or set bpm and measures from audio/ after the fact.
I make music without any grid, but notice that a lot of tools depend on it.
I'm also wondering if there's a way to "extract" or set bpm and measures from audio/ after the fact.
I make music without any grid, but notice that a lot of tools depend on it.
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- KVRian
- 964 posts since 21 Sep, 2013
bpm and the term "bars" (relating to making music) reference a measurement of time. Unless people have perfect time, they'll have to follow the machine that does have perfect time. Otherwise it would be constantly compensating for the minute inconsistencies while also trying to produce 1's and 0's to create a wave file and play it at nearly 0 latency. Tempo sync'd Reverb and Delay would be a nightmare, for sure.
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- KVRist
- 180 posts since 18 Apr, 2014
I like inconsistent music so thats ok to me.
For me working gridless (or bpmless) is also an amount of freedom. I really dont like to set a bpm prior to recording and following a metronome.
@u-u-u
You know you can automate the bpm on the mastertrack, right?
For me working gridless (or bpmless) is also an amount of freedom. I really dont like to set a bpm prior to recording and following a metronome.
@u-u-u
You know you can automate the bpm on the mastertrack, right?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1350 posts since 31 Mar, 2014
Yes, but that doesn't work for me in most cases.stufflin wrote:@u-u-u
You know you can automate the bpm on the mastertrack, right?
I want to improvise on my keyboard and I want to capture the feeling of my music which also includes ritardandi/accelerandi and tempo-free sections.
The tempo automation only is an option if you record straight to the click (+quantize maybe). But that enforces me to give up a lot of the feeling of the music. (Why, tell why???
)And if I record to the click and automate the tempo afterwards, most of the time it's too late: the feeling + creativity is lost. Sorry, but for instrumentalists the live playing is the most immediate and spontaneous way of expression.
Of course I can turn off the click and just record the notes. But then I want to add other tracks, maybe I want to do other parts that shall fit to the recorded stuff. I want to edit the tempo of the recorded stuff. For that it would be really, really great if I could suit the grid to the stuff I recorded. That's what I'm talking about - and would be interested if anybody here would like to have that option, too.
One of my new dream workflows would be like this:
1. record notes and automation with ritardandi/accelerandi.
2. tell the daw where the beginning of the different bars and beats are positioned in my recorded stuff
3. then select an option called something like "suit project grid to recording" ... bam! -> the grid now fits perfectly to the recording - and on the master track now is the tempo automated like i played it (with all ritardandi/accelerandi).
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- KVRAF
- 2111 posts since 25 Jun, 2008 from Montreal, Canada
It would be great but since Bitwig is more EDM oriented I don't think we'll see this soon.
But +1!
But +1!
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- KVRAF
- 1996 posts since 16 Jan, 2013 from USA
The latest Melodyne will do something like that. To the point of if being annoyingly difficult to set a fixed tempo. Some of the notation programs allow free form bars and performance markings.
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- KVRist
- 180 posts since 18 Apr, 2014
What is your main reason to have this "spot on grid"? For beatsynced effects? Or for easy identification of the parts? (In last sense cuemarkers could help too. Thats what i use, with a grid of 128/1 throughout with no snapping)u-u-u wrote:
One of my new dream workflows would be like this:
1. record notes and automation with ritardandi/accelerandi.
2. tell the daw where the beginning of the different bars and beats are positioned in my recorded stuff
3. then select an option called something like "suit project grid to recording" ... bam! -> the grid now fits perfectly to the recording - and on the master track now is the tempo automated like i played it (with all ritardandi/accelerandi).
@jonljacobi
Thanks for the tip on Melodyne 4!
Its amazing!! Omg
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1350 posts since 31 Mar, 2014
Yeah, beatsynced fx, also easy identification of the parts + mainly better reusablility of the music material. And working with grid sometimes saves a lot of time when working in editor or arrangement, e.g. when some stuff just has to be (e.g. phase-)aligned tightly. Or with different time signatures, which will come one day I think. Or with video integration, if they plan it for the future.stufflin wrote:What is your main reason to have this "spot on grid"? For beatsynced effects? Or for easy identification of the parts?u-u-u wrote:
One of my new dream workflows would be like this:
1. record notes and automation with ritardandi/accelerandi.
2. tell the daw where the beginning of the different bars and beats are positioned in my recorded stuff
3. then select an option called something like "suit project grid to recording" ... bam! -> the grid now fits perfectly to the recording - and on the master track now is the tempo automated like i played it (with all ritardandi/accelerandi).
Nevertheless thats a cool tip. Thank you!stufflin wrote:(In last sense cuemarkers could help too. Thats what i use, with a grid of 128/1 throughout with no snapping)
But how does it look if you some out of your arrangement then? How many cue markers do you use then? Just asking because one part sometimes can be very short (like half a bar or so).
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- KVRist
- 180 posts since 18 Apr, 2014
Ok.
When im seeing the form i make scenes from the cuemarked sections.
Check melodyne standalone though. Amazing timeedit features. Just found out. Wont help with the grid/ bpmshift in BW though.
When im seeing the form i make scenes from the cuemarked sections.
Check melodyne standalone though. Amazing timeedit features. Just found out. Wont help with the grid/ bpmshift in BW though.
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- KVRian
- 525 posts since 24 Feb, 2008
+1 to this feature.
Instead of dragging recorded notes to new positions in grid
I'd like to record notes, then move grid lines so they fit the notes that keep their timing.
Like if I know 2 notes are supposed to be 1 bar apart I'd put position 1.0.0 where note starts. Then scale the grid so that grid position 2.0.0 is where the second note starts. All following notes would be in correct places in the grid and the DAW would know the tempo used while recording notes.
Instead of dragging recorded notes to new positions in grid
I'd like to record notes, then move grid lines so they fit the notes that keep their timing.
Like if I know 2 notes are supposed to be 1 bar apart I'd put position 1.0.0 where note starts. Then scale the grid so that grid position 2.0.0 is where the second note starts. All following notes would be in correct places in the grid and the DAW would know the tempo used while recording notes.
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- KVRist
- 170 posts since 15 Jul, 2022
Years after, sorry for digging up the thread.
Did you find a way to do that in Bitwig ?
Its easy in Reaper with a sws extension : move the grid beat according to free played notes is nice.
But I still don't know how to achieve that in Bitwig. The subject seems to be far from solved, so maybe it's time to re-open it, isn't it ?
Did you find a way to do that in Bitwig ?
Its easy in Reaper with a sws extension : move the grid beat according to free played notes is nice.
But I still don't know how to achieve that in Bitwig. The subject seems to be far from solved, so maybe it's time to re-open it, isn't it ?
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- KVRist
- 68 posts since 8 Feb, 2015
I believe indeed the only thing you can do in Bitwig even in v5 is manually automating the tempo on the master track which obviously doesn't cut it. I sure wish they would add something better!
In the meantime, I have resolved to recording my click-less playing in Cakewalk. In Cakewalk, you can then tap along while listening to your recorded performance, and then in one go the grid lines/beat divisions will be placed in all those places where you have tapped. And/or you can use the mouse to tell Cakewalk where the first beat of a new bar should be. Works quite well and you can then export as Midi and import into Bitwig which preserves the tempo automation.
(Cakewalk is a free DAW actively developed by Bandlab, but Windows only. https://www.bandlab.com/products/cakewalk)
In the meantime, I have resolved to recording my click-less playing in Cakewalk. In Cakewalk, you can then tap along while listening to your recorded performance, and then in one go the grid lines/beat divisions will be placed in all those places where you have tapped. And/or you can use the mouse to tell Cakewalk where the first beat of a new bar should be. Works quite well and you can then export as Midi and import into Bitwig which preserves the tempo automation.
(Cakewalk is a free DAW actively developed by Bandlab, but Windows only. https://www.bandlab.com/products/cakewalk)
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- KVRist
- 68 posts since 8 Feb, 2015
Actually seems BandLab will replace Cakewalk by Cakewalk Sonar in the near future which then "will be offered at price points designed to meet the needs of different customers" https://www.cakewalk.com/sonar/. They say whoever has the current free full version can continue to use it but it seems once Cakewalk Sonar is out there will be no further development on the free version.)
