FR: Metering value options (not only max value)

[Tagirijus]

Hi there,

from the thread Metering Poll and a private message I got, I came up with an idea, I had some time ago already. I could not find such a requesst in the forum, so I'll post it.

How about an option to set the value under the metering to be NOT only the max value. In an compressor for example the value always shows the highest peak. Often times I click on the value so that it resets and I can check new set up values with the out meter for example. This slows the workflow down a bit, since I have to stop the audio, click on the value, start again and watch.

It would be cool if there'd be an option to not only have the max-value, but also some kind of "last three seconds" or similar. Good idea? To much work for implementation, Vojtech? Bad idea?

Thanks for replying!

Best,
Manu

[Svama]

+1

[MeldaProduction]

Well, I'm not sure. Basically these things can be way more complicated that you'd think of. Mainly because there are pretty much infinite number of possibilities. And also each meter is different. But I agree that sometimes the "the last 3 seconds value" (whatever that would mean in that context) would make sense. I think maybe a switch that would show the "top" value (the temporary maximum line) instead of global maximum. And it would be available only for meters, where there is such a value... I'll think about it...

[Compyfox]

It would be cool if there'd be an option to not only have the max-value, but also some kind of "last three seconds" or similar.

So basically - a histogram function for whatever meter is available (in this case, Digital Peak)

[DarkStar]

I was thinking that too.

If so, then isn't that "just" a timegraph but a defined time-scale (3 seconds or whatever)? From the several plug-ins that I looked at, all of the meters are available in the timegraph



Or are you looking for the actual numbers? But remember we can drag the four red lines down from the top edge,as level guides.

[MirkoVanHauten]

I think he just wants a useful (for example gain reduction) meter like all the ones that even the basic and simplest free compressor plugins have. Showing a gr peak from 10 minutes ago isn't useful (at least I can't think of any example in an practical environment)

[MeldaProduction]

With GRs that is probably true. The problem is, what to show - with compressors the maximum (or more like minimum here) is the best. But then you turn the processor into a gate and there no value really makes sense... the free compressors you are talking about just cannot be gates, well, technically even the expensive compressors cannot be gates , sometimes I regret having so many features .

[Tagirijus]

I am aware of the timegraph, yes. But still thanks for mentioning it, Darkstar. Unfortunately this does not help much, when you try to work with exact numbers (yes, I know, Vojtech ... work by ear! ...). The little red line has no real dB value and the graph only does not tell me that much regarding exact values.

I am only talking about a single number, which is shown on the bottom of the meter. The thing is: when I use MTurboCompressor, I'd like to see some rather actual values for the GR meter, instead of a maximum, since it does not make much sense, when searching for the best GR. At least to me, who knows.

[Compyfox]

Can you please specify what you actually want? Because you make no sense whatsoever.


If you don't want a histogram function, you want an "average" readout of max peak and "gain reduction"?

[Tagirijus]

Can you please specify what you actually want? Because you make no sense whatsoever.


If you don't want a histogram function, you want an "average" readout of max peak and "gain reduction"?

Like I already wrote and already confirmed by Vojtech partially: the number below the meter is a maximum / minum number only. What I would like: some kind of average of the last three seconds displayed as a number ... or maybe even the realtime value (would be hard to read with fast changing peaks for example) like in the LU meter of MTurboCompressor. And this for the meters, which do only have max or min at this point (in and out meter and the gr meter especially).

[Compyfox]

Once more - why is this important?

For signals (individual, full mix), max readouts are the most important.
For Gain Reduction, that's another thing.

What do you want to do with it?
What is your end goal?

Do you want that number for knowing "okay, on avg -3dB of gain were reduced and max it was about -10dB - let's raise the output gain by the avg amount"?

Or is there something more behind it?

[MeldaProduction]

That are very good questions. I think most people just want the number of follow whatever they are looking at, which changes by the situation and person , so it's quite impossible to make everyone happy. But the reality is, that the accurate number is nearly always completely useless...yet people are just trying to hold onto it, like it possesses some kind of magical power saying that "something is good" . But it usually doesn't .

[Tagirijus]

Compyfox: If you would have read my posts carefully you would also have read that my workflow mainly is about reading the gain reduction. Why I mentioned other values as well? I thought it would follow the concept of individual setup of the Melda plugins. But yeah: mainly I was talking about the GR meter.

Once more - why is this important?

It's about workflow. Speeding it up. Like written in this thread already: instead of being forced to reset the GR meter always, a last-N-seconds-avg value would make more sense at least to me.

For signals (individual, full mix), max readouts are the most important.

There could still be situations in which you do NOT want to have the max value shown under the meter.

What do you want to do with it?

Look at the given value to know things.

What is your end goal?

Getting money with it to buy many many lollipops.

Do you want that number for knowing "okay, on avg -3dB of gain were reduced and max it was about -10dB - let's raise the output gain by the avg amount"?

Or is there something more behind it?

Actually I want that number to calculate a secret hidden illuminati message I accidentially get, when producing my music and sounds. Weird stuff though.


... seriously: for what do you want to have any value shown under a meter? Sure, you can question everyones workflow. And then?


Aside from the GR value (which I primary was talking about) for the other values like in and out there might be other people who could speak for themselfs. Maybe a more realtime in-meter number could let people adjust the correct threshold, while using MDynamics, for example. Just an idea.

[Svama]

That are very good questions. I think most people just want the number of follow whatever they are looking at, which changes by the situation and person , so it's quite impossible to make everyone happy. But the reality is, that the accurate number is nearly always completely useless...yet people are just trying to hold onto it, like it possesses some kind of magical power saying that "something is good" . But it usually doesn't

After reading this, I fell like and think your actual meters are unnecessary and could be totaly removed! Maybe that´s the answer?!

[Compyfox]

Look... I probably see metering tools from a different view as you do (probably way different than a lot of people here on KVR), Tagirijus. And to me an "average meter" (RMS realtime!) only makes sense for a whole mix rather than a Gain Reduction value. Not only that, the "average" value is highly subjective and is being influenced by the material you send through - more bass intensive material will result in a stronger readout, etc.

Which is why so called "AGC" cirtuits (Automatic Gain Control) can have an offset of +-1,5dB. And while we're at it, AGC is pretty much considered "good business"/standard to implement these days. So there is no need to add what's already there and working in the background. (IMO and all that)

Your best judge, are(!) still your ears.

So unless you're totally lost in terms of what to do, and need this feature, then there is IMO not really a need for going an extra mile other than having a Histogram view. Once more, in my opinion!


There is no need to be sassy.
But if you're after lollypops as ultimate goal - sure... go ahead. I recommend Lemon or Cherry taste, sometimes Apple. They're the most vintage/classic ones.

... seriously: for what do you want to have any value shown under a meter? Sure, you can question everyones workflow. And then?

To me, the following values are the most important:
- what is the maximum signal strength (dBFS max)
- what is the average signal strength
- how does the GR meter (on a compressor) respond - look at the value, "halve" it in my head, dial back in the output gain and then go by ear


That is, if we talk mixing.

Mastering is a completely different topic. Here I trust what ITU-R BS.1770-x spec type meters offer me (and there are many tools on the market that offer various different value readouts). You should know that, you offer this type of service yourself. Unless you're mainly swimming along a certain wave, like a lot of people out there, without knowing what you're doing.

Aside from the GR value (which I primary was talking about) for the other values like in and out there might be other people who could speak for themselfs.

But what if they can't, because they just don't know how to work with these tools, or metering tools for that matter, to begin with? Ever thought about that?

Why introduce more features and readouts that most Joe Normalguy's won't even understand? This is why there are still so many messed up ideas on metering, mixing and mastering. This is why we still have followers and firm believers of the Loudness War, even though it's long over.

I'm not saying that "change" and "innovation" is bad in this case - it's how it's advertised and "abused".

Maybe a more realtime in-meter number could let people adjust the correct threshold, while using MDynamics, for example. Just an idea.

But there is no correct threshold to set according to an average read out of the GR. Using compressors is a subjective thing, so it's basically art, it's a "gut feeling". There is no one-fits-all setting.

Do you really think an GR AVG value will improve that?!
If the answer is yes... well... more power to you I guess.




Ultimately - it's Vojtechs decision - he is the dev.
But personally, as Audio Engineer with a huge interest in Metering Tools, I don't see a need for this.