Is there any posibility to have this killer feature on Waveform 9?

[rosesbyrosex]

First of all, I want to justify the main reason of the request.
I think many of us mix several songs using the same plugins and presets, i mean the same synths, the same samplers, the same EQ preset for the guitar in all the songs.
So basically we when we finish a song and want to start a new one, we clone the song edit and change only the audio/midi clips keeping the same plugins and presets. So you basically use the same plugin template

This happen mostly when doing a music album, you use the same template on all the songs.

But here is the real problem, what happen when your sample based instruments are too heavy, using more than 100 gigabytes of sample files and takes so long time to load (like 5 minutes to load). You close the finished song, then clone the edit to use as template for the new song, so you wait all plugins in the new Song..
So everything fine at this point, but when editing the midi clips you realize that the bass is not loud enough, so you add some gain, but you have to add that gain to the previous song too AND THERE IS NO WAY TO OPEN THE PREVIOUS SONG MAINTAINING THE ACTUAL OPEN BECAUSE THE SAMPLE BASED INSTRUMETS WILL LOAD AGAIN AND YOUR 16GB OF RAM WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO HANDLE THAT AND THE COMPUTER WILL FREZZE, so you close the song you are editing, open the previous, add some gain to the bass, then close, and reopen the new song, wait for all the plugins to load (like 5 minutes of waiting), and then continue to edit the midi clips, then you want to add a new instrument, a flute and when it's done you realize that it sound very good and you want your previous song to have a flute too, so here we go again, we close the edit, open the previous, wait to the plugind to load (like 5 minutes of waiting)...

SO I WONDER, WHAT IF WE CLOUD CHANGE BETWEEN THE SONG CLIPS WITHOUT CHANGING THE VST PLUGINS/PRESETS

It was so beautiful that i made an image on paint to view with my own eyes. Basically i am asking for a TAB to change between the songs (clips, tempo and time singature) but maintaining the plugins and tracks/folder tracks. Like the circled tab in the image below.

THEN WON'T BE NECESSARY TO MODIFY EVERY SONG WHEN MAKING A CHANGE , ALSO NO MORE SWITCHING BETWEEN SONGS, SO NO MORE WAITING FOT THE PLUGINS TO LOAD, SIMPLY A BEAUTIFUL THOUGHT



If anyone read this and want it to be real, please add it in a comment below.
If this feature is added in Waveform 9, the steps between Waveform 8 and Waveform 9 will be more notorious.

The developer may not want to change the way the Project EDIT works, so it can be added as a new type of project element "Project TEMPLATE", similar to a Project EDIT but feature enhanced. With the posibility to store many songs with all their clips using the same vst, tracks and folder tracks, then when you make a change in a vst, it would apply for all the songs.

[chico.co.uk]

I'm curious why you think many people write lots of songs using the same plugins and presets, add a flute to one song, and want to add a flute to all their other songs too? Is this something you've discussed with other people, and they do this too?

[gesslr]

I think it is a cool idea. It is essentially like DPs virtual rack (I forget what it is called). Basically you can have a set of instruments loaded that you can use between songs. You can also have instruments loaded in each individual song too so your instrumentation can vary but still have a core set. As you point out, it saves a lot of ram and time.

That’s probably a huge architectural challenge though.

You CAN do exactly what you want now using VSL’s VEPRO. It will load a whole set of virtual instruments and effects that you can save and plug into your DAW. In fact, you can plug that very same set of instruments into any DAW. Work in Tracktion, quit (leave VEPRO running), open another DAW, connect it, and off you go. And it will host 32 and 64 bit plugins and is very mature and stable. It’s used a lot by folks who do film scores and have massive templates and have noted the same issues as you.

Downsides are that it isn’t cheap, and it requires a little work getting your head around. But if you invest the time and money, it opens up lots of new possibilities. It will run on a single machine or multiple slave machines to spread the cpu load.

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Softwar ... semble_PRO

[jabe]

You could use a different edit for each song.

[rosesbyrosex]

You could use a different edit for each song.

That's basically what i do, and if you take your time to read the post you may notice THAT IS WHAT WE WANT TO CHANGE.

[rosesbyrosex]

I'm curious why you think many people write lots of songs using the same plugins and presets, add a flute to one song, and want to add a flute to all their other songs too? Is this something you've discussed with other people, and they do this too?

That is because i do, and i saw lots of users on youtube that do the same as i do, i am a metal musician, in metal when you have a gear that sounds good, (Guitar, FX, Amp) you will keep that sound for most that you do, and you will ever use the same instruments, guitar, bass, drum. So we use the same sample based instruments, and the same vst/effects ETC. Obiously we can change plugins but when it sounds in the way you like, you stop making changes.

I don't know wich type of music you make but maybe using the same plugin/presets may not apply for you,
i also said that many people do that, because it's true, just search on youtube for sample based and fx simulate metal and you will see that almost everybody use the same or similar things in all their songs.

This also applies in real life, for example, the finnish metal bands HIM and To/Die/For
HIM uses a gear setup per album, i mean same distortion,fx,amp, cabinet, guitar, bass, drum...so they make a album with the same things, when they do a new album the gear changes for the new album...
Take for example the albums Razorblade Romance and Tears on tape, the sound is the same in every song of the same album.

To/Die/For used almost the same gear for all albums, but in some albums they changed the guitar, drum or bass model, but the Amp, Cabinet are the same, Engl Ritchie Blackmore Signature Amp Head With Marshall cabinet.

So as real bands, we do the same but in emulated verisons (Amps, Cabs, Fx, sample based instruments) in VST format

and about the flute was just and example , you may want to add to a song or two but not to all, in that case you just disable the VST in the songs that you don't want flute

[rosesbyrosex]

I think it is a cool idea. It is essentially like DPs virtual rack (I forget what it is called).

DSP Audio Server?

Basically you can have a set of instruments loaded that you can use between songs. You can also have instruments loaded in each individual song too so your instrumentation can vary but still have a core set. As you point out, it saves a lot of ram and time.

It’s used a lot by folks who do film scores and have massive templates and have noted the same issues as you.

Downsides are that it isn’t cheap, and it requires a little work getting your head around. But if you invest the time and money, it opens up lots of new possibilities. It will run on a single machine or multiple slave machines to spread the cpu load.

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Softwar ... semble_PRO

I'll give a check, thanks

[jabe]

You could use a different edit for each song.

That's basically what i do, and if you take your time to read the post you may notice THAT IS WHAT WE WANT TO CHANGE.

[dRowAudio]

Hi rosesbyrosex, it's a nice idea and I do quite like it but I fear it may be a bit niche and time consuming to implement to make it in to a version any time soon.

If you're recording an album or several tracks that all use the same setup, wouldn't it make sense to just have the various songs at different times in your edit? For example, you could have a song start every five minutes. That way, all the plugins etc. will just stay on the tracks and you just move around the bit of the Edit you're currently working on. (One thing we might actually be able to add it a "limit view" feature which would only show you part of an Edit's timeline).

I also however think this sounds simpler than it would be to work with. There's lots of things that can change between songs, not least the actual number of instruments (additional guitars, backing vocals, percussion etc. immediately spring to mind). It would be very easy to simply end up with lots of Edits that have tracks that don't refer to anything in them.

The other problem that I can see is although it might seem good to have plugins share their state across Edits, in reality would this really work very well? You would have to have extremely similar instrumentation and recording setups for plugin presets/levels etc. to have the same effect on tracks from different songs. Even during a song, automation is often heavily used to tune plugins to the different dynamics and frequency content of a changing track. I'm struggling to see how this immediately solves that issue?
I can see lots of situations where you listen to a track, change a plugin's parameter and then unwittingly completely ruin the mix for all the other songs that reference this plugin. It would be like mixing an entire album at the same time...

Don't get me wrong, it's got the start of a nice feature but I think it needs to be worked out a bit more before we give a firm yes to it.
Cheers!

[HansP]

I think it wouldn't be a plugin paradigm but an external gear paradigm, though the gear is digitally hosted.
it's an interface question.
how do we define such a music station? perhaps like a MIDI sound station, that has a version number and a certain set of sounds and controlling parameters.
seems a 3rd party have solved that.
loading an edit then only loads a shell plugin (or many), but the sound station has been ready all the time. just the plugin parameter set also has to embed recheck data that the sound station (whatever this is, should be totally versatile, and is put together by the musician) has all sounds and features ready and loaded. the plugin can send to the sound station something similar like the MIDI exclusive data, to partially reprogram the sound station. it can request setup data also for single components of the sound station, and save that with the edit. it can manage automation data and translate it in real-time to the sound station, as it does with the MIDI playing data.

on one level, it is just another synthesizer, on another level, it is a shell to control a big number of midi-capable sound processors, that are hosted by the shell system, or if you want to do it, hosted by the Waveform runtime system that stays on, while switching edits.

then, it does not matter if the sound station hosts gigabytes of sample data, like the vienna library. but it needs no reload at loading an edit. its shell plugin does not request a full reload, only if a sample (bank) is missing.

the heuristics of good old backup software can be used, to load only what was missing, or has changed. not all the sample banks.

[HansP]

many digital synths
synth 1
synth 2 >=== [shell- and synth hosting system] ====< many plugins running at the same time
synth 3
some running sample banks

[rosesbyrosex]

Hi rosesbyrosex, it's a nice idea and I do quite like it but I fear it may be a bit niche and time consuming to implement to make it in to a version any time soon.

I can see lots of situations where you listen to a track, change a plugin's parameter and then unwittingly completely ruin the mix for all the other songs that reference this plugin. It would be like mixing an entire album at the same time...

Don't get me wrong, it's got the start of a nice feature but I think it needs to be worked out a bit more before we give a firm yes to it.
Cheers!

About having many songs in the same EDIT at different time, well it may be useful for now but i would have to struggle with different time signatures and times across the EDIT

And Yes, in some cases some plugins presets may not be adequate in other songs, but that can be fixed in this WAY:
GLOBAL PLUGINS: Sample Based intruments/Synths (plugins that are the same across songs and mostly the heavy to load)
LOCAL PLUGINS: EQ, PASS Filters,...everything else you need to tune for each song





So would be a similar like global and local variables on a c++ code and you can save the order of the plugins, and the local plugins would have their own presets in every song even if they are used in other songs for example EQ, also a diferent color.

[dRowAudio]

It's interesting but I do wonder about this added complexity. You now have to keep in mind everything that could be referencing these global plugins.

It's funny you mention global variables in C++ as they're considered one of the worst practices and should be avoided at all costs (for similar reasons to my objections here). They've even written a Core Guideline about it: http://isocpp.github.io/CppCoreGuidelin ... #Ri-global

[jabe]

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[rosesbyrosex]

It's funny you mention global variables in C++ as they're considered one of the worst practices and should be avoided at all costs (for similar reasons to my objections here).

Well, i am not a programmer as you , so i don't understand much about the repercussions, but i really wanted to share my ideas even if they are not possible to implement, so now i feel realized, and also thanks for taking your time to read the full post, Tracktion has one of the most complete Customer Support services as you can talk directly to the software developers.