Help! MIDI Looping Problem

Discussion about: tracktion.com
zzz00m
KVRAF
2835 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Post Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:48 am

I recently discovered this while using Waveform 8.2.0 and SynthMaster One 1.0.5 (64-bit).

I created a short MIDI clip with several bars in a chord progression with notes that last a full bar (whole notes in 4/4 time). That is, each 'note on' event starts exactly at the first beat of each bar, and does not send 'note off' until the first beat of the following bar.

The clip plays fine one time through, but if I loop it, the first bar played (bar 1, or whatever) after the loop point does not trigger the notes. But then it plays the notes OK at the very next bar.

With more than one bar looped, it never plays the notes in the first bar of the looped section. If I just loop one bar, it only plays the notes every other time it loops.

I have included a gif video of this one bar loop in action. You can observe the keys on the virtual keyboard being triggered by the notes in the MIDI clip.

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT9Igq6lg ... /giphy.gif
Windows10; plugins from AAS, AIR, Ample, Arturia, Cherry, DiscoDSP, Fathom, IKM, Intermorphic, iZotope, KORG, KV331, Melda, NI, PluginGuru, PreSonus, Surge, Tone2, Toontrack, Tracktion, u-he, UJAM, Vital, Waves, XLN

jabe
KVRAF
2093 posts since 9 Oct, 2008 from UK

Post Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:58 pm

It's always iffy having MIDI notes when you're looping. I've experimented a little and it appears that the Loop Out marker sends Note Off messages for any notes playing when it is reached. However, these Note Offs and the Note Ons at the beginning of the looped section appear to be actioned to happen at the same time, so if there are notes playing, the Note Ons are ignored and the Note Offs actioned, and when there is silence, the Note Offs are ignored and the Note Ons are actioned.

Possibly.

You might have to shorten your chords a little. Which is fine if you want them to restart, but if you want them to play continuously without restarting, you'll have to do it differently. You could render the track to audio and then loop the audio.
[W10-64, T5/6/7/W8/9/10, 32&64, Spike],[W7-32, T5/6/7/W8, Gina16] everything underused.

zzz00m
KVRAF

Topic Starter

2835 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Post Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:17 pm

jabe wrote:It's always iffy having MIDI notes when you're looping. I've experimented a little and it appears that the Loop Out marker sends Note Off messages for any notes playing when it is reached. However, these Note Offs and the Note Ons at the beginning of the looped section appear to be actioned to happen at the same time, so if there are notes playing, the Note Ons are ignored and the Note Offs actioned, and when there is silence, the Note Offs are ignored and the Note Ons are actioned.

Possibly.

You might have to shorten your chords a little. Which is fine if you want them to restart, but if you want them to play continuously without restarting, you'll have to do it differently. You could render the track to audio and then loop the audio.
Thanks for the reply! But I also tried this same MIDI clip in Reaper and Sonar and it looped flawlessly with the same synth.

That is why I am confused...

And I did try shortening the notes a few ticks in Waveform to see if it made any difference, and it did not. It seems to be a matter of the note on not being recognized during the loop.

Also tried the same clip in Tracktion 6 with the same result. Also tried the clip on another computer with the same result in W8.
Windows10; plugins from AAS, AIR, Ample, Arturia, Cherry, DiscoDSP, Fathom, IKM, Intermorphic, iZotope, KORG, KV331, Melda, NI, PluginGuru, PreSonus, Surge, Tone2, Toontrack, Tracktion, u-he, UJAM, Vital, Waves, XLN

jabe
KVRAF
2093 posts since 9 Oct, 2008 from UK

Post Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:22 pm

It is strange. I tried to reproduced what you had but couldn't get mine to do the same. I did have long notes across the Loop Out marker which were stopped at that point. I wonder if there's a way someone else might try with your MIDI track.
[W10-64, T5/6/7/W8/9/10, 32&64, Spike],[W7-32, T5/6/7/W8, Gina16] everything underused.

chico.co.uk
KVRAF
2417 posts since 17 Jun, 2003

Post Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:40 am

There have been midi looping fixes since 8.2.0, in the release notes ...
"my gosh it's a friggin hardware"

zzz00m
KVRAF

Topic Starter

2835 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Post Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:21 am

chico.co.uk wrote:There have been midi looping fixes since 8.2.0, in the release notes ...
Good tip. I'll check out the latest beta...

[Edit] Installed the 8.2.6 beta after I saw the notes regarding MIDI clock fix on looping. But still have the same problem.

A little workaround is that if I set the last notes in the bar before the 'loop out' point to end 1/8 or 1/16 note early, the synth retriggers the note at the 'loop in' point (beginning of a bar in this case) when looped.

Just moving the note end a little bit early (with snap off) prior the the first beat of the next bar does not make a difference.

The amount of early 'note off' required for success seems to vary a bit, depending on which patch I am working with in the synth. I am beginning to think that this may have something to do with the synth retriggering the envelopes in the patch. Maybe it needs a moment to reset?
Windows10; plugins from AAS, AIR, Ample, Arturia, Cherry, DiscoDSP, Fathom, IKM, Intermorphic, iZotope, KORG, KV331, Melda, NI, PluginGuru, PreSonus, Surge, Tone2, Toontrack, Tracktion, u-he, UJAM, Vital, Waves, XLN

zzz00m
KVRAF

Topic Starter

2835 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Post Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:34 am

jabe wrote:It's always iffy having MIDI notes when you're looping. I've experimented a little and it appears that the Loop Out marker sends Note Off messages for any notes playing when it is reached. However, these Note Offs and the Note Ons at the beginning of the looped section appear to be actioned to happen at the same time, so if there are notes playing, the Note Ons are ignored and the Note Offs actioned, and when there is silence, the Note Offs are ignored and the Note Ons are actioned.

Possibly.

You might have to shorten your chords a little. Which is fine if you want them to restart, but if you want them to play continuously without restarting, you'll have to do it differently. You could render the track to audio and then loop the audio.
Shortening the chords in the last bar before the 'loop out' works if I use at least 1/8 to 1/16 note or more. A slight bit does not seem to help.

The only reason I created this pattern was to audition the arpeggios in SynthMaster One, so that was the reason for the whole notes running the length of each bar, to just let the arps run for four beats before changing chords.

The looping is just to keep running the pattern for as long as I need.

Not ready to render anything to audio yet! But maybe someday! :D

Thanks for the tips!
Windows10; plugins from AAS, AIR, Ample, Arturia, Cherry, DiscoDSP, Fathom, IKM, Intermorphic, iZotope, KORG, KV331, Melda, NI, PluginGuru, PreSonus, Surge, Tone2, Toontrack, Tracktion, u-he, UJAM, Vital, Waves, XLN

dRowAudio
KVRAF
1771 posts since 30 Dec, 2012

Post Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:59 am

We are aware of a first note bug when looping MIDI in Waveform. We think we've fixed it with some under-the hood changes we made to the MIDI system but are waiting to roll this in to W8 until we're sure there are no edge cases we've mixed. (It's a bit more complicated than it sounds as there were a few places where regressions appeared after these changes such as in racks and when doing track-track MIDI recordings).

zzz00m
KVRAF

Topic Starter

2835 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Post Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:40 am

dRowAudio wrote:We are aware of a first note bug when looping MIDI in Waveform. We think we've fixed it with some under-the hood changes we made to the MIDI system but are waiting to roll this in to W8 until we're sure there are no edge cases we've mixed. (It's a bit more complicated than it sounds as there were a few places where regressions appeared after these changes such as in racks and when doing track-track MIDI recordings).
Thanks for the info! Understand the need not to break anything else in the process of fixing something!

Looking forward to the next update! :tu:

Cheers! :party:
Windows10; plugins from AAS, AIR, Ample, Arturia, Cherry, DiscoDSP, Fathom, IKM, Intermorphic, iZotope, KORG, KV331, Melda, NI, PluginGuru, PreSonus, Surge, Tone2, Toontrack, Tracktion, u-he, UJAM, Vital, Waves, XLN

pdk_
KVRer
28 posts since 24 Oct, 2017

Post Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:57 am

I am having the same issue with 8.2.6. It doesnt play the first note even if its chopped exactly at the start of the loop.

ubailey
KVRist
148 posts since 4 Apr, 2017

Post Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:35 pm

This is a huge problem. Has it been fixed.
DoomTune.com

ubailey
KVRist
148 posts since 4 Apr, 2017

Post Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:00 pm

I just tested this myself. This problem is happening with Synthmaster 2 and 1 no matter what preset, and also some other free synths that i tried like tal bassline, shiit bassline and tyrell n6 seem to have the same problem. But there are many other synths that work fine such as synth 1, zebralette, sylenth1 Dune 2 and 3, vacuum pro, hybrid 3, syntronik, sample tank 3 custom, legend, viper, kontakt player and reaktor player and probably a few others im forgetting all work fine. Synthmaster is the only paid for plugin i found with the problem in addition to a few other older free plugins
DoomTune.com

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