Hi,
Trying to wrap my head around something when programming Bazille lately...
Here's the basic question:
If I have an Envelope be re-triggered by an LFO (e.g. using the tweaks page to change it from Gate to LFO) does it matter what the shape of the LFO is?
meaning, is an Envelope that is set to be retriggered by an LFO Tri output with value 1/8th note going to differ from an Envelope that is set to be re-triggered by an LFO Square output with value 1/8th note?
Obviously I can test this when I'm home, but I'm trying to understand what's actually going on under the hood, so to speak...(e.g. if I discover their *is* in audible difference, I want to understand what is causing the difference, specifically).
If the cycle value is the same (e.g. an 8th note) but the shape value is different, I can't seem to fathom or imagine what possible effect this would have on an envelope re-triggering. so to put it another way, How does the LFO shape actually modify or change the envelope re-triggering? Or does it make no difference?
thanks,
-Michael
Bazille Question (but sort of general synthesis question, too)...
-
- KVRAF
- 2430 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA
-
- KVRAF
- 26978 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
When you select LFO1 to be the loop trigger for an Env, you cannot even select the LFO shape. So there isn't a way to select Tri vs Square.
What does matter in the LFO is the Wave parameter. That does not change timing, but it does effect how long the 'note' is held.
What does matter in the LFO is the Wave parameter. That does not change timing, but it does effect how long the 'note' is held.
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2430 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA
pdxindy wrote:When you select LFO1 to be the loop trigger for an Env, you cannot even select the LFO shape. So there isn't a way to select Tri vs Square.
What does matter in the LFO is the Wave parameter. That does not change timing, but it does effect how long the 'note' is held.
Ah right, you are correct of course, I wasn't in front of my studio computer when I posted my question and therefore forgot that you can't actually specify which output is used.
But, really my original question remains unchanged, it's just that it pertains specifically to the Wave shape parameter.
I'm not really grasping why / how changing the shape changes how the envelope gets retriggered. Yes, there's a difference, but I want to know *exactly what is being changed* due to the wave-shape that is chosen.
If an envelope is being re-triggered by an LFO set to 1/8th notes, we know that every 1/8th note is the cycle at which the envelope starts again. So what does the "triangle" have to do with this? What part of the envelope triggering is it affecting? Is it changing the the 1/8th note rate in some manner? and if not, what parameter or value is it having an effect on? How does the Triangle wave differ from choosing the downward ramp / saw type wave? I can *hear* the difference, but I don't understand what it is, and the notion of an LFO "shape" being applied to an envelope trigger just sort of doesn't make sense to me, I can't picture / formulate what is modifying what.... do you see what I mean?
nitty gritty details would be much appreciated, thanks!
-
- KVRAF
- 26978 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
think of the retriggering as the same as a note you are playing.
the 1/8th timing does not change, but the wave parameter changes how long the note is held.
the 1/8th timing does not change, but the wave parameter changes how long the note is held.
-
- KVRAF
- 4197 posts since 23 May, 2004 from Bad Vilbel, Germany
I guess the pulse wave is used as the gate, with a tiny "window" so that gate on and gate off don't coincide (that's why you have to turn Wave up a bit before the gate closes properly). I'll investigate more and add this to the Cookbook - thanks!
-
- KVRer
- 1 posts since 1 Oct, 2018
AUTO-ADMIN: Non-MP3, WAV, OGG, SoundCloud, YouTube, Vimeo, Twitter and Facebook links in this post have been protected automatically. Once the member reaches 5 posts the links will function as normal.
Does anyone have a "Bazille bass" preset? Please send me an email vezdik@gmail.com (mailto:vezdik@gmail.com).-
- KVRian
- 911 posts since 10 Dec, 2013
I think you're probably thinking along the lines of triggering events in the modular world where the rising edge of a signal (typically when it crosses a threshold) can be used to generate a trigger event. In that case the shape of the LFO would be important, as if the threshold was e.g. set at half the LFOs amplitude, then a triangle wave would trigger at a different point to e.g. a sawtooth or square wave running at the same rate.
From my very limited DSP knowledge I would imagine the triggering in Bazille is instead based on the phase of the LFO/phase accumulator controlling the LFO (basically just a variable counting constantly from 0 to 360 degrees/2*pi radians then resetting), so it probably triggers at the same point irrespective of LFO shape.
EDIT: Hmm no I see what you mean + Howard now, and after playing around a bit. A good patch to visualise this behaviour is modulating the pitch of osc 1 with LFO 1 square wave output. Play a long note, full sustain on Env 1 with regular trigger, make the LFO pretty slow (like 1 second period or slower), and play around with the Wave parameter. It's essentially pulse width modulation, where Wave anticlockwise from center = the pulse is high for a shorter time and low for a longer time, and vice versa for Wave clockwise from center. You should hear the pitch alternating high and low for varying amounts of time.
Converted into envelope triggering, when the square wave LFO is high the envelope is active (i.e. note on, play through attack/decay/sustain stages), and when the square goes low this is effectively a note off message (i.e. start release stage of envelope)
From my very limited DSP knowledge I would imagine the triggering in Bazille is instead based on the phase of the LFO/phase accumulator controlling the LFO (basically just a variable counting constantly from 0 to 360 degrees/2*pi radians then resetting), so it probably triggers at the same point irrespective of LFO shape.
EDIT: Hmm no I see what you mean + Howard now, and after playing around a bit. A good patch to visualise this behaviour is modulating the pitch of osc 1 with LFO 1 square wave output. Play a long note, full sustain on Env 1 with regular trigger, make the LFO pretty slow (like 1 second period or slower), and play around with the Wave parameter. It's essentially pulse width modulation, where Wave anticlockwise from center = the pulse is high for a shorter time and low for a longer time, and vice versa for Wave clockwise from center. You should hear the pitch alternating high and low for varying amounts of time.
Converted into envelope triggering, when the square wave LFO is high the envelope is active (i.e. note on, play through attack/decay/sustain stages), and when the square goes low this is effectively a note off message (i.e. start release stage of envelope)