2CAudio Precedence

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
jens
KVRAF
19036 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia

Post Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:45 am

Cinebient wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:52 am
Not sure if it‘s just placebo (i‘m sure it‘s not) but now i have to add a Precedence (and Breeze) to all tracks i use. If i remove it there is something lacking which i never thought about before (and it doesn‘t matter if it‘s a synth or acoustic instrument or whatever).
So is this a start of a Precedence addiction? :)

I don't think it's placebo. Or otherwise it has the same effect on me. (Except that I just purchased B2 and found it to be a great partner for Precedence too)
" It is a measurable fact. Not my opinion. And not even subtle. If you can't hear difference in tail between Valhalla and VSR reverb tail then again change your job dude." kmonkey

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XComposer
KVRist
265 posts since 18 Aug, 2006 from Italy

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:55 am

I already have a couple reverbs with spatialization features (Breverb 2 and EAReverb2, the latter of which can show the positioning of other instances but only allows editing the currently viewed instance). In a nutshell what is the benefit of Precedence + Breeze or other 2C 'verbs over these other products?
I don't have Breverb, but I have shortly said something about Eareverb and Precedence on page 9 of this thread.
www.GKweb.it
Mac, OS X 10.11, Logic Pro X

Den*
KVRist
267 posts since 7 Apr, 2015

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:45 pm

This plugin is really all what I needed. İt fixes reverbs so good that I am really excited how mixes sounds with Precedence now.
Wonderful indeed how he corrects, and smoothing out the tails.

I think this should be part of all 2Caudio reverbs implemented into plugins.

Bravo 2CAudio you are always one step ahead...


Happy Christmas, and New Year...


:harp: :band: :violin: :band: :band2: :band: :band2: :band2:

Spratman
KVRist
426 posts since 26 Nov, 2000 from Gallifrey, The Capitol.

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:23 pm

I was playing with this one last night with some premixed material. It certainly gives a strong sense of position compared with toys I have used in the past - even when adding some reverb to it, which is often where other approaches seem to degrade a lot. Been thinking of getting this as a birthday present. Only thing that is slightly less desireable is the static positioning aspect, but I understand why as this wasn't really the intention. Going to play with dearVR next as that's also on sale atm. Binaural mixing is something that I've been wanting to do for a while. I realise these two products are a little different but for me being able to hear headphone mixes where elements are well positioned is something I look for when mixing audiodrama and there is some crossover between these products in that way.
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Wondering if someone could refer me to 2CAudio as well as I don't have an account yet. *Thanks for the response to this request guys and girls - mission complete bday present bought*

Regards,
Spratman ;)

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Unaspected
KVRist
478 posts since 4 May, 2012

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:35 pm

Just purchased with a little help from Plexuss to receive a further $20 off! Much appreciated. :)

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plexuss
KVRAF
2471 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:07 pm

Unaspected wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:35 pm
Just purchased with a little help from Plexuss to receive a further $20 off! Much appreciated. :)
Thanks! Iif anyone else wants a referral, I can do it for you. PM me your first, last name and email address. the email can't be assigned to an existing 2c account. :phones:

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Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2448 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:38 pm

Spratman wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:23 pm
I was playing with this one last night with some premixed material. It certainly gives a strong sense of position compared with toys I have used in the past - even when adding some reverb to it, which is often where other approaches seem to degrade a lot. Been thinking of getting this as a birthday present. Only thing that is slightly less desireable is the static positioning aspect, but I understand why as this wasn't really the intention. Going to play with dearVR next as that's also on sale atm. Binaural mixing is something that I've been wanting to do for a while. I realise these two products are a little different but for me being able to hear headphone mixes where elements are well positioned is something I look for when mixing audiodrama and there is some crossover between these products in that way.

Thanks! :tu: Happy New Year :party: :tu:

We have three modes complete in P now in our internal build. Here is a sneak peak of what they do:
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Beta Mode
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Beta Mode is the default Alg Mode in Precedence. It uses a full suite of psychoacoustic principles to very specifically position source sounds within the stereo field. It makes full use of interaural time delays and other advanced time-based technices to achieve the most precise positioning possible. It can be considered a pseudo-binaural mode; it utilizes the most universal aspects of binaural hearing without the limitations of traditional binaural signal processing techniques, and works equally well over both speakers and headphones. The Beta name and symbol on the GUI is a pneumonic to remind users that some binaural aspects are utilized to achieve its highly specific positioning abilities.

The Beta Mode targets an average phase correlation of 0%, which means some specific frequencies can have negative correlation while others will have positive correlation. The exact correlation of the complex signal coming out of Precedence is completely dependent on the frequency content of the input signal. On musical signals it is possible to end up with strong negative correlation with some combinations of input signal and parameter settings in Precedence. This is true particularly if the input signal happens to have a narrow frequency range. This changes drastically, even chaotically depending on the input signal, and even different notes from the same instrument may have drastically different results.

This behavior is completely accurate to the real physical world and the same phenomena are created by stereo microphone techniques that employ any form of spaced microphones. If there is any space whatsoever between multiple microphones there will be at least one frequency that is exactly 180 degrees out of phase when measured at these two distinct points in space. The distance between microphones, or ears, determine what frequencies are out of phase. This is how a sense of width is created. This is an innate aspect of the psychoacoustics of spatial hearing.

Care has been taken to ensure the best possible mono-compatibility for this type of processing, but strictly speaking any form of interaural time delay is not perfectly mono-compatible in the mathematical sense. Some degree of comb filtering effects can result upon collapsing the signal to mono for the reasons above. Generally, these effects are limited to high frequencies in Precedence, and care has been taken to ensure good mono compatibility in the bass frequency range. Precedence is of course a product that has the explicit purpose of spatializing sounds in a stereo field. Mono is the degenerate case; it is not the primary target. The Beta mode therefore concentrates fully on making the stereo effect as good as it can possibly be, with reasonable mono-compatibility as a secondary consideration.

As in all modes, exactly perfect mono-compatibility is also possible simply by reducing the Width parameter to 0%. This does not completely defeat the benefits of Precedence. Later and depth positioning is still possible, and modulation is still active.


//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Mu Mode
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

The Mu Mode was designed to provide enhanced mono-compatibility. It attempts to retain as many psychoacoustic localization principles as possible, within the constraint that the average phase correlation should be around +50%. Mu Mode does not allow strongly negative correlation, and is therefore a safer choice to use compared to the Beta Mode when mono-compatibility is of critical importance. Stereo imaging feels slightly more narrow than the Beta Mode, as indeed it is in the mathematical sense, but the Mu Mode still is able to retain many psychoacoustic benefits over standard gain panning, including rather surprisingly some degree of time differences. Mu Mode is able to create arrival time differences, as occur in Beta Mode, but does so in a way that retains as high of a degree of mono-compatibility as possible.

The greek letter "mu" is equivalent to the Latin/English letter "m", and users can use the pneumonic "mono", or perhaps "unity" given that lower-case "mu" looks like "u", to remind themselves that the focus of this mode is mono-compatibility.


//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Omega Mode
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

The Omega Mode is a special effects mode that employs spectral shuffling to achieve width. This means different frequencies are panned differently within the spectrum to achieve width. Width can be controlled quite exactly in this mode by controlling how large the inter-channel spectral differences are. The result is similar to the effects caused by early reflections in real physical rooms, and indeed the Mu Mode allows exaggerated time constants to approach results normally associated with early reflections.

Unlike the Beta and Mu modes, some degree of coloration is imparted on the signal by the spectral filters employed in Mu Mode. Latteral positioning is possible, but is slightly less distinct as the Beta and Mu modes. Spectral magnitude differences can cause unavoidable panning effects, which vary with frequency and may partially confuse the position that the user is attempting to obtain. Some additional coloration is furthermore unavoidable when using extreme Angle values.

On the plus side, mono compatibly is exactly perfect when there is no panning (i.e. when Angle is exactly 0% in Precedence). Mono compatibly remains very good even at extreme Angle values, albeit the mono result will retain some of the coloration imparted by the spectral filters.

Omega Mode is more artificial and less connected to real-world psychoacoustic principals. It is supplied as a special effects mode that can be used on sound effects, synths, and within modern music production styles that are not particularly concerned with achieving a completely authentic acoustic result.
The version you guys have currently is only the Beta Alg-Mode. It remains mostly unchanged, although we did find and fix one or two minor bugs in it.

Inter-plugin communication between Precedence and Breeze has been established also. We are finishing up a few other things and hope to have it in your hands shortly. :tu:

anyway, that's the News from Lake Wobegon as they say. :wink:

experimental.crow
KVRAF
5643 posts since 9 Mar, 2003 from The Druid Hills

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:22 pm

:party:
Image

Melvin J.
KVRist
96 posts since 2 Dec, 2005

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:55 am

Sweet deal. The new modes you describe seem very interesting. I'm mixing a live album with precendence and breeze on every channel and have found the sound to be much interesting to me than using standard gain panning. I'm loving it thus far and having some new modes will be fun to try out :)

cthonophonic
KVRist
184 posts since 1 Jan, 2018

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:05 am

Sounds exciting! Also, I think you mean mnemonic rather than pneumonic, unless you're talking about greek letters in people's lungs. :wink:

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Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2448 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:22 pm

ah yes, indeed. spelling was never my forte. thanks. :tu:

Melvin J.
KVRist
96 posts since 2 Dec, 2005

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:34 pm

What's the best way to interpret Precendence's "distance" parameter as? It seems like one could interpret it's function as 0 to 100 feet or as a percentage. But if it's a percentage, then what's it a percentage of?

For instance. It's recommended to use the "distance" in Precendence as the "mix" value in Breeze 2.1. I find myself enjoying putting things in Precendence out at "50" or greater in the "distance" parameter in Precendence but there is almost no way I'm going to want 50% or greater mix value in Breeze in most mix case uses as it would be way too reverb heavy.

So I can't believe the "distance" parameter in Precendence is in feet or even in meters but then again, I've certainly been wrong many times of yore ;)

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Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2448 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:41 pm

The distance aspect in Precendence is not in specific physical units such as feet/meters etc. It’s based more on various abstract psychoacoustic aspects of hearing and how this may translate to dsp properties.

When integrated with Breeze 2 (and/or eventually B2 and Aether) the reverb engine provides the physical size cues.

See also the post I just made in the Breeze thread for info about the distance and mix pairing...

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bmanic
KVRAF
8199 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:39 am

Just found this plugin.. damn, must say I'm pretty impressed. These kinds of effects always end up sounding annoying and "wrong" but for some reason Precedence remains quite natural. It can also get quite "phasey" sounding at extreme settings or when there's a lot of high frequency content but this would be true for any skewed stereo mic setup as well.

Anyhow, I'm really intrigued. Any idea how long the sales price is going? Even at the sales price this is pretty expensive considering what it does (albeit it does it very well).

Also, looks like I could get a further 20$ off with some referral coupon? Anybody got one of those?
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

BERFAB
KVRAF
6039 posts since 25 Mar, 2004

Re: 2CAudio Precedence

Post Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:07 am

I was an Aether and Breeze 1 owner. I rarely used them because of the processing drain on my old setup. I took advantage of the holiday special and updated to Breeze 2.1 and Precedence. I must say that I'm very impressed. Just as a reverb, I find Breeze 2.1 to be one of the cleanest I've ever used. No weird artifacts. And very creative presets with very low CPU drain. This has become my go-to, and I can't wait to see what develops with the Precedence pairing.
I see that many have talked about B2. Can someone explain what, if anything, this brings to the table that Breeze and Aether may be missing?

Cheers
-B
Berfab
So many plugins, so little time...

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