When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Sampler and Sampling discussion (techniques, tips and tricks, etc.)
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Forgotten wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:44 pm
jancivil wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:31 pm
AKJ wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:21 pmCopyright was an invention of capitalism. In pre-modern era it did not exist
In fact it was a thing before capitalism was even a word. Maybe look it up.
I write or record something, I may wish to retain the rights to it. But do be communistic with other people’s labor.
If I recall correctly, copyright did not protect the rights of the author for a long time after its original implementations in Europe - it was enacted originally to protect the rights of publishers from republishing (and thus losing potential revenue).

Basically it came about with the widespread use of the printing press.

Conception

The concept of copyright first developed in England. In reaction to the printing of "scandalous books and pamphlets", the English Parliament passed the Licensing of the Press Act 1662,[15] which required all intended publications to be registered with the government-approved Stationers' Company, giving the Stationers the right to regulate what material could be printed.[18]

The Statute of Anne, enacted in 1710 in England and Scotland provided the first legislation to protect copyrights (but not authors' rights). The Copyright Act of 1814 extended more rights for authors but did not protect British from reprinting in the US. The Berne International Copyright Convention of 1886 finally provided protection for authors among the countries who signed the agreement, although the US did not join the Berne Convention until 1989.[19]

In the US, the Constitution protects the rights of authors and the legislature, Congress, can create national copyright laws but must exercise their power within the scope of the Constitution. Modeled on the Statute of Anne, Congress enacted the Copyright Act of 1790. While the national law protected authors’ published works, authority was granted to the states to protect authors’ unpublished works. These two protections exist today: protection by the state for unpublished work, subsequent protection by federal law for published work.[19]

Congress enacted an updated law in 1909, which was later determined to be flawed and was subsequently replaced by the 1976 Copyright Act. This act expanded the items that were eligible for protection, including literary, music, dramatic, pictorial/sculptural works, motion pictures, sound recordings, and choreographic works. This act also extended the copyright protection to life plus 50 years. One final change was that it “codified a fair use exception to copyright”. With these changes in place, the US was in a better position to join the Berne Convention, extending copyright protections internationally.[19]

[19] = Sandra Day O’Connor in Irish Jurist

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AKJ wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:21 pm In every country there are different laws and indeed it is very much a question of interpretation - definitely not as clear as people claim here. I can only say how it should be: if you add something original, there should not be a problem.
“How it should be” seems awfully self-serving in spirit to me.

In fact, The Berne Convention is quite clear. It requires a nation to treat protected works from other nations at least as well as their own. There are differences in conception like in the US, only registered works are seen for collecting damages, while Berne states registration shall not be required, once a work is “fixed” it is copyrighted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention

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discoDSP wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:44 pm
If you liked that kind of acoustic drum'n'bass then you should take a listen to 4hero.

https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=U47BB ... ReJGb5uNfo
Saw a performance of this Spacer song with live drummers and an orchestra. The genre was still called "Jungle" back then, rather than "DnB". Exciting times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWemS7WC2_Q
eh?

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vurt wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:26 pm i want to use this particular sample...
if i process it till its unrecognizable is that ok?

why is it important to use this particular sample if, you are going to change it to a point it's something else? just make the something else.
I understand what you mean. In a way you're completely right. I've collected some samples now via legal channels (looperman, musicradar, samplemagic) which I like as much as the "illegal" ones (from the immaculate collection "Ultimate Breaks And Beats").

Let me explain what I do on my humble Korg Volca Sample. I've always been impressed by 'Public Enemey' their sound. Especially the sample from "Funky Drummer" by James Brown. That sixties/seventies Funk drum sound! Love it. What you do is slice up "Funky Drummer" to individual instruments to get that that fat seventies-produced drum sound. Especially the snare drum. Now if you use said snare drum slice and combine that w/ "legal" samples from a kick drum, tom's etc.? And what if, in the creative process, you put a phaser effect on said snare? This might result in a sound you'd like. But said sample might not be recognized by Youtube, and it might well be. Is that illegal? Apparently so.

I was/am looking for that 'Public Enemy' seventies Funk sound. Not every drum sounds "funky", depends on the production technique, not necessarily the drummer or the drum kit. Didn't know where to look for that, other than the classic samples from "Ultimate Breaks And Beats". I do not have a production studio, nor do I have a drum kit. I'm forced to use samples. Both from drum breaks/loops and individual instruments.

It is difficult to make "something else" if you do not have a sample to start from. Now I have, but the sources dry up pretty quickly. The amount of classic Funk albums is almost endless so the temptation to use them is great. More so since I listen to those tracks a lot and think: "Wow, I really like that one.". Guess that today we'll just need to look harder. :wink:

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I agree with the others who are dubious about the need to recreate the exact sounds of classic loops. However, if you are determined to legally recreate the snare sound from Funky Drummer, I think it should be achievable given the amount of technology that is available.

You could try resynthesizing it with Tone2 Icarus which is probably a legal shortcut. It would probably still take a fair amount of work since resynthesis doesn't handle the attack and reverb tail.

A more creative exercise would be to start with a legal acoustic snare sample and apply compression, saturation, and reverb to get something close. This video indicates that EMT plate reverb is a big part of the original sound. Hopefully, you would find different cool different sounds along the way so it isn't just an exercise in mimicry.

https://youtu.be/Xt1e8U49dk4

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OP,
Sample whatever you want.
Post it online.
Everyone does.
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highkoo wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:15 pm OP,
Sample whatever you want.
Post it online.
Everyone does.
well of course :tu:
im not against sampling.
my point was i didn't understand why youd change it beyond recognition, seems pointless finding a cool break (not talking beat slicing, i thought he meant full audio metamorphosis).

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but, it is still also important to know the legality.
for your own protection as much as anyone

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I agree with you implicitly, Sir!
That point about the recognition of the sample is a great one here. Its an interesting part of the whole sampling conversation.
Cuz at that point, what is the point for either side of the argument? Why sample? Why care that it was sampled?
I just thought Id jump in with the non-academic real world advice for OP. :)
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yup, the reality is, no one is going to spend money on lawyers unless you've made enough money to be worth sueing. at which point it becomes publicity for both artists and can often be sorted amicably out of court.

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:tu:
That is the best answer to every one of these threads. :)
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vurt wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:50 pm but, it is still also important to know the legality.
for your own protection as much as anyone
Ablolutely!
vurt wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:20 pm yup, the reality is, no one is going to spend money on lawyers unless you've made enough money to be worth sueing. at which point it becomes publicity for both artists and can often be sorted amicably out of court.
Well. Maybe not so anymore nowadays. Computer algorithms automatically recognize pieces of audio/music. So if you made something simple and want to share it w/ a small group of people your video will still be taken down by Youtube. One might even get into trouble that way. Even though your video didn't make any money at all. I think that it's even worse than in the 80's and 90's.
Frantz wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:56 pm [...]This video indicates that EMT plate reverb is a big part of the original sound. Hopefully, you would find different cool different sounds along the way so it isn't just an exercise in mimicry.
[...]
Thanks for posting the link to that video! I'm a sucker for nerdy info like that. I'm neurotic 'bout snare drums. I like the 808 its snare (legal to sample if I'm not mistaken) and Clyde Stubblefield's snare on "Funky Drummer".

Anyway, I found some really great "70's Funk" like gratis royalty-free samples to work with that I can recommend for 'Public Enemy' and 'James Brown' nutters/ fans on Samperadar and Samplemagic.

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Better be informed about youtube's policy:
https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6013276

Note that this is usually about using full music tracks as background music without having permission (relatively easy to police automarically), not about ripping the FunkyDrummer snare (near impossible to police)
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Image
My MusicCalc is served over https!!

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highkoo wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:15 pm OP,
Sample whatever you want.
Post it online.
Everyone does.
wrong, everyone doesn't, and those that do are c**ts

let's all go to your house and steal your stuff, everyone does it

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Youre really that comfortable that high up on that horse..?
But yea, youre all welcome to sample anything of mine. Shocked?
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