I still can't dial in a "real" or "usable" kick sound in DrumComputer, even after the 1.1.0 update. I spent a lot of time just now A-B comparing DrumComputer against typical kick samples I'd actually build a full project mix around, while staring at 3D spectrograms and oscillocopes.
I think the fundamental problem is the lack of any AD or ADSR envelope. In all 3 oscillators, but especially in the Resonator oscillator. The Attack envelope of the sub/bass signal coming out of the Resonator is exactly the same no matter what pitch drop or other settings you have in that section. It's vertical and too fast, and it results in all your kicks that have enough "boom/thump" in the sub and bass region ALSO having way too much of the resonator peaking very high in the transient phase of a typical kick sound. Also, the Decay envelope is too steep and linear, it's not shaped and rounded at all. There's no sustain: it's just instant peak followed by a fast linear drop. (As you increase the main Resonator knob, the decay slope is still perfectly linear, it just slopes down less fast.)
TL;DR--every sound in Drum Computer is SUPER peaky/poky/transient. This works great for a lot of the sound types in DC, but NOT for the kick. It's impossible to make a kick that has a sharp transient phase only in frequencies from about 500 Hz and up, followed by a "knock" phase where the main tonal pitch drop occurs but ALSO sitting well above the sub range, followed at last by a fairly slow Attack envelope for the "body/thump/boom" Resonator section swelling in later.
This lack of an AD or ADSR envelope on each oscillator makes it super hard to create natural-sounding kicks. Please think about ways to add an independent AD or ADSR envelope to each section?
Attached are two images showing the difference between a GOOD kick and a DrumComputer kick that cannot be used to build a track around. First image is the good kick. Notice how the sub portion of the kick's body phase swells in AFTER the transient and knock phase? Notice how the ADSR envelope of the sub portion is shaped? Notice how the oscilloscope shows a nice, fat "Dorito chip" triangle shape? Which can be easily reshaped with a compressor or whatnot to be more of a sharp, pointy dorito chip if you need the drum to be even punchier?
Second image is the drum computer kick. Notice that the main difference is in the ADSR envelope of the three main phases of a kick drum attack? Notice how the shape in the oscilloscope is all wrong? The transient is just WAY too "poky" and high, and there's pretty much no setting in DrumComputer that can somehow turn that really poky shape into a good "dorito chip" shape.
DrumComputer Kicks still weird/wrong after 1.1.0
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- KVRian
- 1268 posts since 27 Apr, 2007
interesting post, thanks for the effort.
I have to wait for my machine to get back from repair (apple build quality these days...), I would like to talk further and try some things.
I have to wait for my machine to get back from repair (apple build quality these days...), I would like to talk further and try some things.
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- KVRAF
- 11001 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere
Not sure what the benefit of comparing against “typical” kick samples is - everyone has a different idea of what a kick drum should sound like in various contexts, and I hear nothing wrong with this one.
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- KVRAF
- 5678 posts since 25 Dec, 2004
i can totally relate to OP.
for kick drums such as trance kicks and such big tight thumping jobbys are not really possible with a lot of drum machines. Punch Box is another one.
They're ok for techno people and those who layer them with samples and or do a lot of external processing, but the envelopes aren't up to scratch.
Heartbeat is ok... Drumatic 4 is good, has a few envelope shapes... DrumSpillage is still the king though. For those of us on OSX. or Kick by the Ana people... Sonic Academy? I own a few hardware drumsynths too, such as the Tempest which is one of if not THE thumpinist. The OP has a perfectly valid argument. Tight snappy envelopes are at the heart of the issue.
Definition. Resolution and density of oscillators and envelopes.
for kick drums such as trance kicks and such big tight thumping jobbys are not really possible with a lot of drum machines. Punch Box is another one.
They're ok for techno people and those who layer them with samples and or do a lot of external processing, but the envelopes aren't up to scratch.
Heartbeat is ok... Drumatic 4 is good, has a few envelope shapes... DrumSpillage is still the king though. For those of us on OSX. or Kick by the Ana people... Sonic Academy? I own a few hardware drumsynths too, such as the Tempest which is one of if not THE thumpinist. The OP has a perfectly valid argument. Tight snappy envelopes are at the heart of the issue.
Definition. Resolution and density of oscillators and envelopes.
sketches... http://soundcloud.com/onesnzeros
some artists i support... https://bandcamp.com/spectraselecta
some artists i support... https://bandcamp.com/spectraselecta
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- KVRian
- 1268 posts since 27 Apr, 2007
.. some engine facts:
-resonator has a natural decay shape (exponential)
in order to apply a logarithmic pmod to this, use the wt env
-which has many shapes, exp and log being among them.
all envelopes are analog style (based on filter cores).
-resonator has a natural decay shape (exponential)
in order to apply a logarithmic pmod to this, use the wt env
-which has many shapes, exp and log being among them.
all envelopes are analog style (based on filter cores).
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- KVRAF
- 5678 posts since 25 Dec, 2004
maybe the pitch envelopes don't end at low enough frequency for the particular kicks OP wants to create?
sketches... http://soundcloud.com/onesnzeros
some artists i support... https://bandcamp.com/spectraselecta
some artists i support... https://bandcamp.com/spectraselecta
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 909 posts since 7 Nov, 2017
I cannot find any shapes in the wavetable osc called "exp" nor "log". Nor any table names that suggest they might have an exp or log shape inside of them.Sugar Bytes wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:22 am .. some engine facts:
-resonator has a natural decay shape (exponential)
in order to apply a logarithmic pmod to this, use the wt env
-which has many shapes, exp and log being among them.
all envelopes are analog style (based on filter cores).
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 909 posts since 7 Nov, 2017
I cannot find any shapes in the wavetable osc called "exp" nor "log". Nor any table names that suggest they might have an exp or log shape inside of them.Sugar Bytes wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:22 am .. some engine facts:
-resonator has a natural decay shape (exponential)
in order to apply a logarithmic pmod to this, use the wt env
-which has many shapes, exp and log being among them.
all envelopes are analog style (based on filter cores).
Unless..... Are you talking about the MG1 and MG2 filter shapes in the Resonator and Wavetable oscs? I've tried the DownLog shape in both and it still won't create *anything* like the natural shape in the sub region I've shown in the screenshots further up in this thread.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 909 posts since 7 Nov, 2017
This is literally the closest I can get in terms of the roundness, knock, and air of a "natural, fat-sounding" kick with DC synth settings and filters and what not. But it still falls way short because I cannot control the the decay shape at all. I'm still stuck with that linear fade and it's just too long and the wrong shape. Plus, it's just too "tweaky and fiddly" to find and dial in a setting like this in the first place.
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- KVRer
- 1 posts since 16 Feb, 2020
I'm having a similar issue to OP. A lot of the Kick and even Snare sounds aren't usable in the mix.
i'm still enamoured by the sequencer and the UI but find that I never use this plugin in a production as the sounds don't deliver.
Has there been any development at all?
i'm still enamoured by the sequencer and the UI but find that I never use this plugin in a production as the sounds don't deliver.
Has there been any development at all?
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- KVRer
- 3 posts since 26 Dec, 2015
Hi, I also found the drum computer sound a little lacking in thud so I feel your pain...
A couple of things which I've been doing can get more of the thud kick drum that might be more of what you're looking for.
One is to layer two drums in Drum Computer. Use a high pass filter on one for the click and then use the analogue synth on the other to do a sine sub layer. Sidechain the sub channel from the channel creating the click. Adjust the level of compression until you have something you like. You can also play with the balance of the two channels.
In the sequencer have both channels doing the same beats. You can then play around with the attack and sustain parts of the sounds independently which isn't really possible in a single channel.
The other thing I found could add some thud is to route the kick to a mixer channel in my DAW and then use some distortion, compression and in my case a bit of envelope following filter. WOW2 is really quite good for this. You can dial in a bit more grit and use the envelope follower to open and close the filter/volume to change the overall dynamics.
I'm not a professional producer or an expert but I would assume that those great samples we all hear are heavily processed from the synthesised originals and often layered in order to get the finished sound.
Distortion and Compression in Drum computer are a little on the light side. I would like more range of adjustment, but breaking out the tracks into your DAW might help you find more of what you are looking for. If you have ableton, there's a great drum bus effect that can add the boom to your kick track.
In the worst case, you can always trigger a kick sample from the Drum Computer piano roll
RB
A couple of things which I've been doing can get more of the thud kick drum that might be more of what you're looking for.
One is to layer two drums in Drum Computer. Use a high pass filter on one for the click and then use the analogue synth on the other to do a sine sub layer. Sidechain the sub channel from the channel creating the click. Adjust the level of compression until you have something you like. You can also play with the balance of the two channels.
In the sequencer have both channels doing the same beats. You can then play around with the attack and sustain parts of the sounds independently which isn't really possible in a single channel.
The other thing I found could add some thud is to route the kick to a mixer channel in my DAW and then use some distortion, compression and in my case a bit of envelope following filter. WOW2 is really quite good for this. You can dial in a bit more grit and use the envelope follower to open and close the filter/volume to change the overall dynamics.
I'm not a professional producer or an expert but I would assume that those great samples we all hear are heavily processed from the synthesised originals and often layered in order to get the finished sound.
Distortion and Compression in Drum computer are a little on the light side. I would like more range of adjustment, but breaking out the tracks into your DAW might help you find more of what you are looking for. If you have ableton, there's a great drum bus effect that can add the boom to your kick track.
In the worst case, you can always trigger a kick sample from the Drum Computer piano roll
RB
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- KVRer
- 3 posts since 26 Dec, 2015
sorry for being almost a year late with the reply...
You have two options I think. Drum computer can play a sample in the third oscillator. I've found that these are mono only so it's not as good as triggering a sample. The other way is to look at the settings page of drum computer. There is a midi out from the sequencer. You can route this another device to trigger the kick. Depends on the DAW you are using, how you do that in practice, but it means you can mix the synthesised drums from drum computer with samples, if you wish. One other thing I found helps drum computer feel a bit more beefy is not to use the built in compressor. Switch it off and compress in the DAW later.
You have two options I think. Drum computer can play a sample in the third oscillator. I've found that these are mono only so it's not as good as triggering a sample. The other way is to look at the settings page of drum computer. There is a midi out from the sequencer. You can route this another device to trigger the kick. Depends on the DAW you are using, how you do that in practice, but it means you can mix the synthesised drums from drum computer with samples, if you wish. One other thing I found helps drum computer feel a bit more beefy is not to use the built in compressor. Switch it off and compress in the DAW later.
