Too much aliasing in extreme situations - 512x oversampling?

[Faiky]

The OSC are nice, absolutely clean, even in the high frequency range with extreme settings. As long as you don't modulate it extremely (in pitch and modulation speed).

I like to push back aliasing by 50 dB or more, which would correspond to 256 times oversampling.

Which is basically what BLIT synthesis and its derivates do. We even do 512x oversampling of steps, pulses and discontinuities

ACE:
the oscillators are even operated with 500-fold oversampling

For DIVA I also read something about 500x aliasing or more.

I don't know if this is the solution. Maybe, this option should only be available as rendering.
It would also be helpful to be able to set a post filter in the custom mod and LFO's that prevents too high frequencies.
You can modulate sample accurate, but is the modulation curve (from inside modulators) itself also upsampled?

With MSF and extreme FM/fast LFO's and so on, I often feel the need to set oversampling even higher. I'd be glad if I could. The modulation filter could also be installed, maybe?

Cheers!

[Faiky]

I made a sample, first with quality extreme x64 and 1x upsampling, second quality extreme x64 and 16x upsampling. It's only a sine modulated to 20 khz (I know that this is unlikely in practice, but for SFX, noise sweeps I want to use it, even if there is only noise left):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mh31pttgrzztx ... O.mp3?dl=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/infljd5wgwv2t ... 2.mp3?dl=1

By the way, i would increase the pitch depth, is it possible to get higher than +/-48 semitones?

[operator]

I know that this is unlikely in practice

What? Unlikly in practise??? In what practise??? Playing cheesey "SuperSaw Filter Plucks" over a 4 Chord Harmonie?? (please don´t be offended, I´m just kidding! )

I use MSF almost exclusivly to create such SFX. This for me, is the practice when it comes to MSF. If I only would want a "SuperSaw Filter Pluck" I would use another synth! This is like the ARP2600 back in the days... this thing is made for complex SFX.

But I think you are on to something here... something that needs to be looked at. Because like me, you seem to use the LFOs in audio-rate territory to create FM sounds.
But the problem with this is, despite the fact that their range is throughout the whole audio spectrum, they aren´t optimised to do so (they produce a lot of aliasing).

I think to remember that Vojtech said something about that... that they aren´t optimised like the regular OSC (or something like that). And as far as I know they aren´t affected by the quality modes (Extreme,...) like the regular OSC. All modules that are affected by the quality modes are the ones where you can turn on/off the aliasing in the module itself (OSC, OSC-Shaper).

So when using the LFOs as FM Operator better try to level between Quality Mode and the global Upsampling Opitons...

Hint: Also try to use the Audio-Rate LFO on the Transform Depth and choose "Phase" from the Mode Dropdown... --> This should give you a more common, more cleaner FM sound.


Off Topic: Does someone else noticed, that upsampling only sounds good when upsampled by the power of 2 --> x2, x4, x8. x16... or am I crazy and hearing stuff that isn´t there???

[Faiky]

I know that this is unlikely in practice

What? Unlikly in practise??? In what practise??? Playing cheesey "SuperSaw Filter Plucks" over a 4 Chord Harmonie?? (please don´t be offended, I´m just kidding! )

Yes, you should modulate with highspeed only when presenting! Otherwise the chance is too high that we all disappear in a black hole !

this thing is made for complex SFX.

Yeah, i quite agree !

But I think you are on to something here... something that needs to be looked at. Because like me, you seem to use the LFOs in audio-rate territory to create FM sounds

Not only audio rate but also free as in the example, but you won't get anywhere with the transformation.

I think to remember that Vojtech said something about that... that they aren´t optimised like the regular OSC (or something like that). And as far as I know they aren´t affected by the quality modes (Extreme,...) like the regular OSC.

I also understand that these settings are only for the oscillator itself, it works of course.

Hint: Also try to use the Audio-Rate LFO on the Transform Depth and choose "Phase" from the Mode Dropdown... --> This should give you a more common, more cleaner FM sound.

For phase modulation, but something clicky in my experience. And too limited for me.

Off Topic: Does someone else noticed, that upsampling only sounds good when upsampled by the power of 2 --> x2, x4, x8. x16... or am I crazy and hearing stuff that isn´t there???

I don't understand why we have the intermediate steps anyway, I never use them.

[operator]

Otherwise the chance is too high that we all disappear in a black hole !

I`m willing to take that risk. All for one and one for all, right???

[Faiky]

Otherwise the chance is too high that we all disappear in a black hole !

I`m willing to take that risk. All for one and one for all, right???

I'm in !

[Jopmanajop]

I know that this is unlikely in practice

Off Topic: Does someone else noticed, that upsampling only sounds good when upsampled by the power of 2 --> x2, x4, x8. x16... or am I crazy and hearing stuff that isn´t there???

You might be right, i've noticed something similar too, but i forgot how to reproduce this to show on some graphs. Even numbers OS works different from odd numbers

[basicinsynth]

I don't know, maybe the two situations are related. I have sent this video to Luke of MeldaProduction, he said that they have to investigate the matter.

[MeldaProduction]

Well, the upsampling contains all numbers, because CPU requirements vary a lot, so you may want to increase it just at the point you like the sound of it. If you find anything odd, just send me the settings please.