MSF Factory Devices So Far: Feedback?

[David]

(proposed as a sequel to the now overlarge and rarely visited MSF Design Thread)

Back in early MSF Beta days, there was naturally a LOT of discussion about how Factory devices ought to be, and on implementing the Design Guidelines that Vojtech offered (https://www.meldaproduction.com/about/d ... undFactory).

Now that there are quite a few of these included with the latest MSF, I wonder how they're being reacted to, by general users (the famous "most" people) as well as other builder-users of MSF (which seems to be by far most of the people who bother to post about MSF, here anyway).

I've certainly both enjoyed many of these and generally been fascinated to check out ALL of them, just to see what "approved" devices actually look like, quite apart from how "useful" they may be to my sound and music making. (My favorite so far, BY far, is the Monastery Piano, Creative version!)

More interesting to me now, is how differently I feel about my own devices compared to using other folks' creations.

I love using my own devices, since the Easy Screen lets me cut directly to the most useful controls with no digging…and I can so quickly save and recall new discoveries. I also truly love that I can so "easily" put so many personal interfaces onto this amazing thing, which really does make it seem like a "factory", and not just yet another synth in a vast sea…

But with other people's devices, I spend a lot of time just trying to figure out what's going on, and the Easy Screen is more of a hinderance for that than a help, in many cases. I'm always either switching to EDIT mode, and/or opening the MP control panels to see what they're actually doing and targeting.

Even with my own devices, after a while I usually quite forget many details of how the thing was built in the first place if I only use the EScreen, since that more conceals than reveals what the actual structure of the thing is.

These feel like unexpected results to me, even though I knew my main reaction to any others would most likely be wanting to either modify them or steal ideas from them, for use in more of my own devices. And even with this sort focus, I've so far found that I hardly ever get around to doing much of that…

Another frequent reaction I've been having with the so far Factory devices is that, sorry to say, I generally don't find them all that easy to use or intuitive, or transparent, all of which I gather are the expected reasons to make them at all, as far as other users are concerned. They seem pretty much as demanding as any other plugins to become really familiar with using…or so limited sonically/functionally that it's not worth the time to get to know them thoroughly; just make note of what the presets do and come back if that's something I can see using again.

It's of course easy to just switch through some presets, and thankfully, most of these do have at least a few dozen of those. But as good as this is for getting a quick sense of the possibilities, it does nothing to guide the user on what the controls are going to do, or, worst case (and all too frequent), as with any new plugin or device from anywhere, what the hell is going on when certain controls don't seem to be doing much of anything. Broken? Not applicable given the settings of other controls for this particular patch…?

Anybody else care to weigh in, at this stage in MSF's short and otherwise glorious existence, on making or using Factory devices, or other devices which rarely but occasionally pop up here in the forums or in the Exchange?

[dmbaer]

But with other people's devices, I spend a lot of time just trying to figure out what's going on, and the Easy Screen is more of a hinderance for that than a help, in many cases. I'm always either switching to EDIT mode, and/or opening the MP control panels to see what they're actually doing and targeting.

Just curious ... do you ever consult device-level help? I know that so far most device authors simply can't be bothered to write anything, even thought the "standards" suggest this should be done. In practice it rarely is, however, and that just leads to an inevitable user reaction: why bother to click on help - there won't be anything there anyway.

I think this is unfortunate. If nothing else, IMO, the main modulation sources should be documented for a device. But in a lot of cases, it's not really clear from the UI just what the device is all about. A couple of paragraphs of explanation would go a long way for some of them to explain why they might be of interest.

Vojtech seems to think nobody will bother to read the help text in the first place. I know I would like to see it made a real standard ... but maybe I'm just an old traditionalist.

[David]

Good point. I just re-read the requirements/suggestions doc, and was reminded of that one, so I went back and checked a few to see how that was going, as I'd never previously done that at all. (Mostly since the help for EDIT-mode modules has generally proven unhelpful, to me, anyway!)

Had pretty much the same reaction to the ones I checked, i.e., "Well, jeez, that didn't help!" More specifically, the help never seems to answer the most immediate question I have, just repeats all the same undefined terms, like: "Mixer: Use for mixing." Not a real example of course, but that's about the jist, IMO.

Confirms MY opinion, which is that a quick, even bare-minimum, demo vid for each one would be a MUCH more useful requirement. And would be actually likely to generate some interest! Or that there be a more unmissable text intro/description made available with an overview of the intended purpose and workflow, etc., as obvious as these may feel to the maker.

Here's an interesting actual example, of my earlier point, and several other things:

In the quite intriguing Device called GUI Soundmaker, there are EScreen control panels called Arp Osc and Arp Noise. In fact, the MSF Arpeggiator is not included in the device; the pitch and level modulations that sort of make it "sound" like an arpeggiator is involved, are done with level and pitch modulations, which these controls target. But the Help for both panels persists in referring to the controls as adjusting the "Arp".

This also confirms a comment I often got from Vojtech, back when I was submitting devices for approval, that he didn't like "technical" names, but preferred more supposedly self-explanatory, suggestive ones, such as Color instead of EQ or Filter Cutoff, etc., as being of more use to "most" users, who wouldn't actually know what an EQ or a Filter was.

I can't evaluate this concept, since I simply know too much already about how synths work, ie, NOT a "most" person. IOW, I wasted a while looking for the damn arpeggiator! then I opened the MP control panel to see what it was really doing. Ease of use result for ME: Complete failure.

[Chandlerhimself]

This is a good idea for a topic. IMO this was always going to be a problem. I think different people are looking for different things when it comes to devices. I think David wants to look inside and see what things do, but other people don't ever want to look at the edit screen and just want something that sounds good fast. Looking over the devices there are quite a few that I can't understand, but I think that was inevitable. I think help documentation would be a great start, especially for controls that aren't immediately recognizable such as attack, sustain, etc. I'd actually like to know if my devices are easy to understand or not. I think the electric piano is easy enough for people to understand, but I wonder about things like "pulsor" or "FM EP"

I think the devices that are there are good, but for me I wish there were more "bread and butter" devices. I'd like just a pluck maker, that does simple pluck sounds quickly. I thought about making it myself, but I thought someone else would do it first. Things like dmbaer's organ are what I need. Although the current devices sound nice, they're not really what I generally need to make music. There is only 1 "lead" device and considering how popular leads are there should be way more. If other people feel the same way I'll start making some basic devices that just do plucks, leads, etc. Of course there should be creative stuff, but I think MSF is lacking some of the basic stuff people need.

As far as David's idea for a video for each device, I doubt we'll get that. I'd be happy to do videos about my devices, but I'd probably do multiple devices in one video. However I there are too many devices already and I don't understand how all of them work. A video on lead devices,keyboards, basses, etc in the future would be good though.

[werzel]

Kudos to Chandler, dmbaer and Manuel (Tagirijus) for making some use of the ? Information with their devices.

[David]

Maybe there could be a new Easy Screen object, fully collapsable but defaulting to open, or just with a big clear "Open Me For Details" label, in which the basic description for the device would be, always to include certain headings, like What's This For, How This Works, Main Controls or Intended/Suggested Workflow, or the like, and NOT in the tiny text format of the help panel, but more easily readable, and with the option to include graphics, as well as links to other info online, such as a video if one exists or if no graphics could be included right there, to images elsewhere (I'm thinking screen grabs of the open tabs with overlaid labels and leaders or flow charts, whatever makes sense…

And maybe there's a way to have every device that's going to be included get a brief period in which feedback from a few other folks is available, since it's very likely that the builder will have blindspots about what really ought to be explained vs what's supposedly obvious.

I completely agree with Chandler about bread'n'butter devices. What comes to my mind right away are the devices that come inside Halion (https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/v ... fects.html), and of which the Monastery Piano is already a great example of what MSF factory content could be, made with only the existing Easy Screen tools.

It seems clear, though, that it's in fact a lot harder to make anything that will actually be used as a bread'n'butter device than it is to come up with specialized, niche-utility stuff like a lot of what's here already, much as I personally enjoy those, and as little as I personally am looking for more generic or more widely wanted stuff, like a lead-maker for instance, which isn't something I'm particularly looking for, but I'm sure is exactly the sort of thing that would be great for MSF to have. But this is like asking for a few fresh new Serums, rather than a few drum library players or bass-makers, isn't it?

Hits ARE rare for a reason:)

[David]

…

As far as David's idea for a video for each device, I doubt we'll get that. I'd be happy to do videos about my devices, but I'd probably do multiple devices in one video. However I there are too many devices already and I don't understand how all of them work. A video on lead devices,keyboards, basses, etc in the future would be good though.

Yeah, of course; video making comes more easily to some than to others:) And I see no problem with covering more than one device per video.

But there ought to be SOMEthing more to both explain what's what, AND to provide a chance for a bit more fanfare about the very existence of these devices.

Right now there's not even a forum-post announcement or even a mention in the new-version update text when these appear! WHY not make some news out of all these creative new things when they first appear, and even go back and do a story about those that have been here for a while; they're really quite interesting even as is, surely?

[aMUSEd]

Where do I find this 'Monastery Piano'? I have Halion but it doesn't appear to be there and can find no reference to it as an add-on.

[David]

What I'd like to see added to the Factory devices is something like a Monastery Collection, in which each and every one of the oscillator types available in the Gen Grid is given an equally graphic and equally both Basic and Creative setting (as already demo'ed in the M. Piano) where users can dig into its features, possibilities and range, with a LOT of presets. Well designed, these would show of not just what the oscillators can do, but also what good MP design and selection can do, too.

And then, each one going into one of a few variations on a similarly graphically gorgeous FX tab, each carefully designed NOT to simply be a basic rack like the existing template, but to be yet another knock-out showcase for exactly how unique, rich, and unparalleled the Melda FX arsenal really IS, especially when racked up in different ways, from not-at-ALL-plain Vanilla to many full-on banana splits.

EDIT: OR, these FX showcases could simply a separate part of the Factory device collection, if giving each Monastery Osc device the same FX was preferred, so long as the following idea (which is basically using them as FX-grid presets along with how to also re-use their MPs) also got implemented.

And then of course, we'd get a Chandler video on exactly how to mix and match any Instrument Tab with any FX Tab, for owners of the full MSF, along with a showcase of how many cool variations on this idea are already included in both the full and the SE versions.

And of course, the very first example should be the Monastery Timpani!

[David]

Where do I find this 'Monastery Piano'? I have Halion but it doesn't appear to be there and can find no reference to it as an add-on.

The Monastery Piano's an optional download for MSF, NOT a Halion device:)

Get it here:
https://www.meldaproduction.com/MonasteryGrand

Can't WAIT until that page is just one of dozens like it in the MSF Downloads area:)

[David]

Can't WAIT until that page is just one of dozens like it in the MSF Downloads area:)

Come to think of it, maybe THIS is exactly where and how each and all of the factory devices should be both showcased AND explained. Whether they're already installed or available as additional downloads should make no difference; they all NEED to be obvious and celebrated. OR whether they're free or add-ons for sale. All the included devices would then need would be an Easy Screen link to their page.

I mean, how is that people are STILL asking not just WHERE the MonPiano is, but WHAT it is?!?

[David]

No doubt much of all this has already been thought of at the top, and the only problem is time and resources to implement it, but I still think it worth weighing in on down here on the ground…

[jmg8]

David - There is already something like you describe in MTurboComp.

Maybe this could be added to MSF?

In my opinion, I do not think the devices are hard to learn. Maybe yes, if compared to a preset, but when compared to an instrument, no. If you buy a new instrument like Serum, for example, it takes about a day to learn all of the stuff there. It would only take about an hour max to learn a device in MSF. A preset with a few macros (that can be found in other synths) would be even faster, let's say 5 mins. So I don't think it's realistic for a user to instantly understand a device. It is somewhere between a preset and a full-blown instrument. I agree there could be more info for parameters, I am currently talking with Vojtech about this.

Also, remember that the devices are mostly for users who are looking for something a little more involved than a simple preset but less complex than building something from scratch. Most of you guys here would just go straight for the edit screen as you probably have a good knowledge of synthesis (and Melda) already. The great thing about MSF is that it can satisfy all 3:
1. Global presets, super fast but no tweakability (not a word, but should be).
2. Devices, take a small amount of time to learn them but have good options for tweaking.
3. Edit screen, sound designers playground, no limits.

As for "Bread & Butter" devices, I totally agree. I started off making more experimental type stuff as it was more interesting to me to explore MSF capabilities. But I am not finished and would certainly love to create some of these more basic devices too. Please let me know any suggestions of devices you would like to see and also any devices that are currently missing. Hopefully, others will make these too.

[David]

David - There is already something like you describe in MTurboComp.
Maybe this could be added to MSF?

In my opinion, I do not think the devices are hard to learn. Maybe yes, if compared to a preset, but when compared to an instrument, no. If you buy a new instrument like Serum, for example, it takes about a day to learn all of the stuff there. It would only take about an hour max to learn a device in MSF. A preset with a few macros (that can be found in other synths) would be even faster, let's say 5 mins. So I don't think it's realistic for a user to instantly understand a device. It is somewhere between a preset and a full-blown instrument. I agree there could be more info for parameters, I am currently talking with Vojtech about this.

Also, remember that the devices are mostly for users who are looking for something a little more involved than a simple preset but less complex than building something from scratch. Most of you guys here would just go straight for the edit screen as you probably have a good knowledge of synthesis (and Melda) already. The great thing about MSF is that it can satisfy all 3:
1. Global presets, super fast but no tweakability (not a word, but should be).
2. Devices, take a small amount of time to learn them but have good options for tweaking.
3. Edit screen, sound designers playground, no limits.

…

Cool:) Yeah, I definitely think a little collapsable text box with some more than usual formatting options would be a useful addition to MSF's ESs, thanks for pointing that one out:)

Equally important, I’d say, would be to make the Help text pop-outs able to be reformatted in the same way, so they can be actually read without zooming! The way they are now is simply painful, IMO, no matter what they actually say.
_________

Certainly I agree that there are hierarchies of complexity, of course. My point isn't that the factory devices should be less complex, or that they're not worth spending some time learning; it's that the devices so far are harder to understand than they need to be, especially considering that the guidelines expressly ASK that they be exceptionally easy to use along with their need to simply be sonically inviting, or maybe even…exciting:)

I think this is because better mechanisms and strategies to explain them well—or at all!—are not made available when they so easily could be.

The guidelines don't look beyond interface design in their search for ease of use and quick understanding, as if there's nothing better that could be found to do that job except gui layout and control renaming, which of course ignores the reality that there’s currently an infinitely rich universe of other means for clarifying anything. IF that's actually a priority.

[David]

…
As for "Bread & Butter" devices, I totally agree. I started off making more experimental type stuff as it was more interesting to me to explore MSF capabilities. But I am not finished and would certainly love to create some of these more basic devices too. Please let me know any suggestions of devices you would like to see and also any devices that are currently missing. Hopefully, others will make these too.

I hope you read MY suggestions above, too, which are not for more bread'n'butter stuff, assuming that means devices that directly supply what "most" people are assumed to want when they open a synth. (Which to me actually sounds more like a Grail quest than a call for basics!)

I think there's a whole other category of devices that is overlooked in the guidelines and in the devices so far available, and that's EXAMPLE devices, which is what my earlier suggestions hope for.

For instance, I'd love to see a small collection of Wavetable synths, including one utterly basic example, one with a few more features, and at least one OTT, "Wow—never seen anything like THAT!" example. And the same thing for ALL the osc types in the gen grid. And then the same with the FX grid.

IOW, let's see some devices that are about MSF itself, and what it can do, for the population that's not just looking for the bread'n'butter they've no doubt already found in countless other synths and just want to nitpick over, but wants to get the point of all the unique things that MSF offers, the NOT bread'n'butter, but the whole skunk-works. That wants to be reassured both that MSF IS worth the trouble to learn and the money spent on it, and that if they'd prefer, they can skip exploring the EDIT-mode toolkit for now and just delight in the proof that these devices would provide that it IS an amazing tool kit for building as-yet-unseen devices, and NOT just yet another utility synth.

(Isn't it actually the bread'n'butter stuff that's already the main source of criticism and contention about whether MSF or Melda stuff—or ANY brand's stuff—in general is worth buying at all? Isn't this what all the endless "Oh, the filters aren't THAT…", and "Oh, the OSCs aren't THIS…" posts are about: The "bread'n'butter"? )

Sure, let's tackle all that, too; I guess we must. But let's don't forget that MSF is an unparalleled gourmet mega-store, not just a corner grocery:)

You might be thinking that this is what the existing devices already do. In some case, I'd agree, but none of them are expressly demos of any particular uniquely MSF feature or possibility, and certainly none are EXPLAINED to be doing that. What I'm trying to describe and encourage are devices that are obviously, or can be easily explained to be, demonstrating particular MSF/Melda features. Which of course is yet another reason to get EXPLAINING these device together.

And believe me, I suggest all this taking myself as at least one of a sort of typical target audience (which I'd describe as The Serious Computer Music Enthusiast. And I've got a LOT of online fellow travelers!). This is what I want to see, to increase my fun with MSF, and fulfill all my own MSF wishes.