What do you like vs don't like about snapping in Waveform?

[FigBug]

What do you like vs don't like about snapping in Waveform? What should we change vs what should we leave as it is?

Just doing a bit of research for upcoming changes. I mostly work on the MIDI editor but this will apply to clips as well.

My biggest annoyance is resizing MIDI clips changes the length in multiples for the snap instead of snapping them to the grid. Does anybody actually like this how it is?

Who wants to be able to set the snap instead of having it tied to the zoom? Should MIDI editor and Arrange window have their own snap setting or share?

Will allow listen to other complaints about the MIDI editor now, no guarantees I'll get to them all.

[fde101]

Looking at Ableton Live as an example, it has options for an "adaptive grid" which adapts to the zoom level and to how much fits on the screen, or a "fixed grid" which can be set to 1/4 notes, 1/8 notes, etc. Snapping is to the grid.

In other words, it provides both options an the user can select which is best for what they are doing at that time.


Reason offers options to snap to the grid or to snap to the bar, 1/2 notes, 1/4 notes, etc. It also offers both absolute and relative snapping modes - in relative mode, it snaps at offsets relative to the current position of the note, so if it starts a bit off the beat, it will snap to positions which are equally off the beat.

Cubase gives a nice assortment of options: there is a drop-down for the quantization setting (1/16 notes, 1/8th notes, etc.), and the grid can be set to either adjust to the zoom level or to use the quantization setting. For snapping you can choose to snap to the grid, to "grid relative", to events, shuffle, cursor, grid + cursor, events + cursor, or grid + events + cursor.

Studio One gives the option to snap adaptive, bar, quantize or frames, and checkbox menu items for snapping to cursor & loop, events, grid and relative grid.

Logic Pro X similarly offers "Smart", Bar, Beat, Division, Ticks, Frames, whole notes, half notes, etc., and gives options for absolute or relative snapping.


Seeing a pattern?

[astey]

I’m new to WF - 2 weeks in, worked with oder daws before. Snap works kind of expected up until this point. I like that i can activate/disable it globally while dragging.

Ideas:
- Adaptive grid depending on the zoom like Bitwig is fast and handy.
- live quantize to shift selected items in real time via slider pre and post snap grid (Like Reaper). So you can „feel“ the groove before committing to it.
- the groove grid is reflected visually by extra lines or varying distances is. Just to display things in an obvious way and users know where to snap.

Improvement for snap editing:
- a quantize hotkey which locks selected items to the currently visible grid.-
- humanize like studio one to generate a small randomized offset


Midi editor complaint:
- Midi editor is missing hid commands such as right click scrolling, horizontal scrolling. It falls out of line completely with the overall navigation concept of the rest of the app. Windows 10 desktop.
- selecting tool stalls on high resolution displays, even stronger than in the main window.
- BR: cant apply same note length twice in a row (on different notes). I must select a different note length in between every time.
- Missing modifier to grab & move tiny notes(maybe I haven’t found this one yet)

Cheers

[fde101]

- humanize like studio one to generate a small randomized offset

Try one of the random options under groove and keep the strength low.

- Midi editor is missing hid commands such as right click scrolling, horizontal scrolling.

There is another thread where this is being discussed; impacts Mac users too unless they use a trackpad or wacom tablet (maybe a magic mouse?). This should really be treated as a bug and fixed.

[FigBug]

- Midi editor is missing hid commands such as right click scrolling, horizontal scrolling.

There is another thread where this is being discussed; impacts Mac users too unless they use a trackpad or wacom tablet (maybe a magic mouse?). This should really be treated as a bug and fixed.

Not sure what you mean by 'hid commands'. I'm a track pad user, so not really sure what people expect from right click scroll. Can you link to the thread, I don't see it on a quick scan of the forum.

[terrynoakes]

Not quite what your asking but:

Randomise note positions option, something similar to the randomise velocity tool.

Short cut for actions bar to select all notes with the same pitch.

End song Marker. To stop transport at the end of song.
Maybe somehow using absolute time marker

[astey]

- Midi editor is missing hid commands such as right click scrolling, horizontal scrolling.

There is another thread where this is being discussed; impacts Mac users too unless they use a trackpad or wacom tablet (maybe a magic mouse?). This should really be treated as a bug and fixed.

Not sure what you mean by 'hid commands'. I'm a track pad user, so not really sure what people expect from right click scroll. Can you link to the thread, I don't see it on a quick scan of the forum.

Hi FigBug,
here is a thread were people discussing about the midi editor: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=544991
Summary: The commands which let you navigate in the main canvas won't work in midi editor.
Examples:

• Right click, which can shift the whole project by clicking and dragging. Within midi editor however, it provides the identical selecting tool/lasso than left click.
• The scroll wheel becomes occupied by vertical scrolling within the editor and there is no modifier (option/alt) to navigate horizontally.

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selecting tool stalls on high resolution displays, even stronger than in the main window.

Here is a demo regarding the user experience of Waveform's graphics performance in the midi editor.

I made a video running W11 in a very small window compared to QHD fullscreen. I use the cursor lasso in a circular motion to demonstrate that W11 can't keep up at all on fullscreen. This video is the third take. On the first take W11 even crashed without log. Strange. Dropbox link:https://www.dropbox.com/s/1g22zkm534ms3 ... s.mp4?dl=0

(Side Note: GUI performance comparison of W11 to 4 popular DAWs: Zendesk: 28453)

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Hi fde101,

- humanize like studio one to generate a small randomized offset

Try one of the random options under groove and keep the strength low.

Nice ! Thanks!
I checked it out and it goes into the right direction, but its not truly random. Notes played simultaneously remain simultaneous. Humans would play small flams though.


Cheers

[fde101]

Not sure what you mean by 'hid commands'.

HID = human interface device. It's a term I believe Microsoft coined to refer to devices that the user uses directly to provide input to the computer - keyboards, mice, trackpads, etc.

[Stuttaton]

The thing I miss most in the midi editor is a horisontal and vertical constrain key. So when you move a note or selection, it will move only horisontally or vertically when you hold for instance the shift key while dragging with the mouse.
Snapping should always be to the grid, in my opinion. I like the current system where the grid changes with the zoom level.

[rhydermike]

The lack of a fixed snap grid in the MIDI editor (and elsewhere) is one of my main bugbears with Waveform.

[Watchful]

The thing I miss most in the midi editor is a horisontal and vertical constrain key. So when you move a note or selection, it will move only horisontally or vertically when you hold for instance the shift key while dragging with the mouse.

Seconded. It's waaay too easy to drag a note and have it wiggle to the wrong position.

[Watchful]

I mostly work on the MIDI editor but this will apply to clips as well.

Roland,

If you're interested in some "non-snapping" suggestions...

Keyboard shortcuts for "Shift selected note one semitone up" and "Shift selected note one semitone down." It's a menu option already, and so far it's been a pain to macro for me.

"Invert chord up/down" in the MIDI editor itself. If I take 3 or 4 notes perfectly stacked in the editor and select this, I can bounce the bottom note to the top or the top note to the bottom. For example, a C, E, and G... if I take select these note and select invert up, it moves the C one octave higher. If it's a C, E, G, and Bb, it bounces the C to above the Bb, etc. There's an "invert up/down" function in the chord builder, but it doesn't work in the MIDI editor.

Finally, something that goes back to the old sequencing days. I used to be able to step through the MIDI notes on a clip by using the "tab" button (or shift+tab) to go backward, one note at a time based on the note's event start time. This was a fast way to cycle through notes to find a bad note or jump through bars. There's nothing like this in Waveform today.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[FigBug]

Keyboard shortcuts for "Shift selected note one semitone up" and "Shift selected note one semitone down." It's a menu option already, and so far it's been a pain to macro for me.

This I will do sooner than W12. (I'll actually do it today, but I don't know when it'll actually appear in the next beta). There will be a new script function midiMoveNotes(int) that moves selected notes up or down.

"Invert chord up/down" in the MIDI editor itself. If I take 3 or 4 notes perfectly stacked in the editor and select this, I can bounce the bottom note to the top or the top note to the bottom. For example, a C, E, and G... if I take select these note and select invert up, it moves the C one octave higher. If it's a C, E, G, and Bb, it bounces the C to above the Bb, etc. There's an "invert up/down" function in the chord builder, but it doesn't work in the MIDI editor.

This exists, but oddly enough it's only a keyboard shortcut, it doesn't appear in any menu or toolbar. I should fix that.

Finally, something that goes back to the old sequencing days. I used to be able to step through the MIDI notes on a clip by using the "tab" button (or shift+tab) to go backward, one note at a time based on the note's event start time. This was a fast way to cycle through notes to find a bad note or jump through bars. There's nothing like this in Waveform today.

This I can probably do fairly easily.

[Watchful]

You are superb! Thanks so much!

[spoontechnique]

WRT Arranger snapping, clips sometimes decide not to snap to grid, no matter how much I zoom in. Could be related to tempo automation? I'd also like a keyboard shortcut or option for triplet and other odd grid divisions.

Duplicating clip behavior is also inconsistent. Sometimes they fit after the source clip, and sometimes they snap to grid. Snapping to grid creates overlap between clips, but fitting after the source clip can make it hard to pull back to the grid.

On to the MIDI editor...

You nailed the problem with notes snapping to multiples instead of the grid. If I extend a note to be a 1/9th, I can't get it to go back to 1/8s (even if the grid is in 1/8ths) unless I click the note length button. If I manually edit it, it should switch to the grid.

The MIDI editor should share its grid division with the Arrange window when using it in as an expanded track in the arrange window. When using the popped-out midi editor window, it should have its own division.

I don't like that you can scroll the MIDI editor to the left. This puts you in a space you can't control in any way, since you can't plant notes there and you can't extend the clip left. MIDI clips should be locked to the space you can control. I don't know why I'd ever need to see what's left of the clip.

I don't like that notes can extend infinitely to the right. Often I have to set note lengths to pull a note that went too far back into editable space so I can grab the end. If I shorten a clip the notes should shorten with it so I can still grab the edge, but extend back out to previous size if I pull the clip out again.

You should be able to set the cursor position and loop region within the popped out MIDI editor. It's incredibly common to want to loop a small section or play from midway through. Exiting the MIDI Editor to set the cursor or loop markers in the Arrange window breaks the flow of editing. The "Preview Notes" tool doesn't replace this, especially if you want to use the Step Input function.

I prefer not to use the Velocity Editor, and I will not use the Controller editor. Something about the thin velocity bars bothers me. I've tried over and over to figure out the Controller editor. It's hard to get properly smooth values, it's hard to set your position back to the 0 or to any specific division. I prefer to set Pitch Wheel values using Automation, which is much easier to use.

That said, the MIDI tools are great, and I don't use them enough. My only other requests would be an easy way (a dropdown menu and keyboard shortcuts?) to set the grid to triplets/quintuplets/septuplets/etc in both the MIDI Editor and the Arrange Window. That and custom scales that you can set within the MIDI Editor as well as for the overall edit. Especially if combined with an option to quantize melodies to a new scale. That would be amazing.