So will the Linnstrument eventually get an update to Midi 2.0? Or is there no real reason to do so?Roger_Linn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:06 pm MPE is not part of MIDI 2.0. MIDI 2.0 has an entirely new message format, which does what MPE does but in a different way.
MPE and Midi 2.0
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 59 posts since 26 Mar, 2020
From another topic:
-
- KVRAF
- 2505 posts since 8 Jun, 2010
- Roger Linn Design
Unfortunately, LinnStrument's USB hardware is locked to MIDi 1.0 message format, though the DIN MIDI jacks could do it via a software update. That said, there's nothing MIDI 2.0 would enable LinnStrument to do that it can't do now. It would just pass the same data in a more elegant format.
-
- KVRer
- 22 posts since 10 Feb, 2020
Would the midi 2.0 implementation of mpe allow for example to send all messages through a single channel? Or nothing as drastic as that?
-
- KVRAF
- 2505 posts since 8 Jun, 2010
- Roger Linn Design
MIDI 2.0 is a completely new protocol, so there are no longer "channels" as defined in MIDI 1.0, and there is no "MPE". There is an entirely different system that accomplishes the same thing as MIDI 1.0, MPE and other newer ideas, provided that you have a keyboard and synth that are both MIDI 2.0 compatible. If you'd like to learn more, you can download and study the MIDI 2.0 document from the MIDI Association. It is being adopted slowly and may take years before it is in common use. At this point, it's difficult to predict.
-
- KVRist
- 481 posts since 22 Jun, 2019
If I can resurect this old thread now that there are some midi 2 synths on the market.
Does anyone knows if those midi 2 synth are compatible with mpe midi controllers ?
I found no mention of mpe in the recent korg opsix rack manual.
Does anyone knows if those midi 2 synth are compatible with mpe midi controllers ?
I found no mention of mpe in the recent korg opsix rack manual.
-
- KVRist
- 321 posts since 8 Jul, 2009
No, Korg havent really embraced that side of things still. They have started to add polyphonic aftertouch support to some of their recent synths, but thats just one dimension of per-note expressive control, its still far from proper MPE support, eg no per note pitch bend. Korg are not a company that has embraced MPE in their synths so far, and that hasnt changed just because they've added some MIDI 2.0 features to certain products.
Although parts of MIDI 2.0 can enable that per-note expressive stuff, can be a successor to MPE, most manufacturers that are dabbling with MIDI 2.0 are only picking one or two MIDI 2.0 features to implement in some products at this stage. And most so far are tending to pick the stuff that allows devices to discover each others capabilities, rather than using the stuff that enables MPE-like features and higher resolution of data.
What Korg have mostly added to the family of synths that the opsix is part of, via some MIDI 2.0 features, is the ability for controllers to automap their knobs to certain synth parameters. Korg are selling their Keystage controller that has little screens next to its knobs. And it can use this MIDI 2.0 feature to make the screens work with some of their synths, automatically mapping knobs on the Keystage to certain synth parameters and showing the names of those parameters on the screens, without users having to do tedious manual configuration. The Keystage has a poly aftertouch keybed (from ASM who make the Hydrasynth) so thats probably why they've started adding poly aftertouch support to some of their synths too.
Although parts of MIDI 2.0 can enable that per-note expressive stuff, can be a successor to MPE, most manufacturers that are dabbling with MIDI 2.0 are only picking one or two MIDI 2.0 features to implement in some products at this stage. And most so far are tending to pick the stuff that allows devices to discover each others capabilities, rather than using the stuff that enables MPE-like features and higher resolution of data.
What Korg have mostly added to the family of synths that the opsix is part of, via some MIDI 2.0 features, is the ability for controllers to automap their knobs to certain synth parameters. Korg are selling their Keystage controller that has little screens next to its knobs. And it can use this MIDI 2.0 feature to make the screens work with some of their synths, automatically mapping knobs on the Keystage to certain synth parameters and showing the names of those parameters on the screens, without users having to do tedious manual configuration. The Keystage has a poly aftertouch keybed (from ASM who make the Hydrasynth) so thats probably why they've started adding poly aftertouch support to some of their synths too.
Last edited by SteveElbows on Tue Jan 30, 2024 1:42 am, edited 11 times in total.
-
- KVRist
- 321 posts since 8 Jul, 2009
A different short answer:
When it comes to shopping for hardware synths that can make full use of MPE controllers, the situation is still unchanged for now:
Look for synths that explicitly say they support MPE, and then ideally find some users that have confirmed that its been implemented properly.
Ignore anything about MIDI 2.0 unless you explicitly see marketing or demos that show MPE-like features have been implemented in one of these new MIDI 2.0 products, and even then you will need to check with people about what exactly this means for compatibility with traditional MPE controllers, there are likely to be technical caveats and gotchas for some time to come, its still early days. Theres not been much talk about this side of things so far because I dont think there are any products at all in this category yet.
When it comes to shopping for hardware synths that can make full use of MPE controllers, the situation is still unchanged for now:
Look for synths that explicitly say they support MPE, and then ideally find some users that have confirmed that its been implemented properly.
Ignore anything about MIDI 2.0 unless you explicitly see marketing or demos that show MPE-like features have been implemented in one of these new MIDI 2.0 products, and even then you will need to check with people about what exactly this means for compatibility with traditional MPE controllers, there are likely to be technical caveats and gotchas for some time to come, its still early days. Theres not been much talk about this side of things so far because I dont think there are any products at all in this category yet.
-
- KVRist
- 481 posts since 22 Jun, 2019
Ok, thanks for that very comprehensive answer.
I genuinly thought that if your wrote 'midi 2.0' on a synth it would support all of it, but sure it's still early days.
I genuinly thought that if your wrote 'midi 2.0' on a synth it would support all of it, but sure it's still early days.
-
- KVRian
- 569 posts since 13 Jul, 2006
MIDI 2.0 may be soon coming to Windows! Actually an entirely rewritten MIDI stack including MIDI 1.0 improvements, too.
The MPE topic is also mentioned in this NAMM interview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AZmAvaeBjM
The MPE topic is also mentioned in this NAMM interview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AZmAvaeBjM
Find my (music) related software projects here: github.com/Fannon
-
- KVRist
- 321 posts since 8 Jul, 2009
Sadly not. To do a proper job of indicating to customers what was supported, they would have to use 3 or 4 different logos rather than 1.ElVincente wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 5:11 am Ok, thanks for that very comprehensive answer.
I genuinly thought that if your wrote 'midi 2.0' on a synth it would support all of it, but sure it's still early days.
I wont try to do this full justice here, but here is an initial, possibly sloppy and inaccurate in some places, overview.
MIDI-CI & Property Exchange. This is the stuff that lets devices talk to each other and automatically share details of parameters etc, for auto-config stuff like Korg have implemented. This can be made to work over MIDI DIN, but its two way so you need both sending and receiving ports to be connected to both devices.
High resolution messages. I dont think this works over DIN, need to use USB or, once the spec is fully available and implemented, network connections.
Per note expressive stuff, the new equivalent to MPE but with far more dimensions of expression available per note. Doesnt work on DIN connections.
Higher resolution messages. Doesnt work on DIN.
Massive expansion of the number of channels available. You can now have up to 16 groups, and each group can contain 16 channels. I think this will also require USB or networking for the transport too, not DIN.
Maybe something else I forgot about.
At best perhaps in practice, depending on which features different companies end up supporting, it might be possible to lump things into 2 categories, the MIDI-CI stuff that can work on DIN and everything else. But you'd still need to check whether the controller, synth etc actually supports stuff like loads of per-note expressivity. Time will tell.
-
- KVRist
- 321 posts since 8 Jul, 2009
User understanding of all this stuff is further complicated by the fact that the MIDI association, for understandable reasons, are desperate to go on about 'backwards compatibility' at every opportunity they can. But theres loads of detail about the extent of this compatibility, as illustrated by the number of 2.0 features that wont actually work over DIN. For now it is best to assume that when they talk about backwards compatibility, they mostly mean the ability of MIDI 1.0 devices to be part of a larger MIDI 2.0 setup, rather than expecting that loads of the new features can be made to work with MIDI 1.0 devices. I dont think many users even realise how much of the new stuff wont work over DIN yet. This wont become obvious to people until more devices exist that actually include the new stuff other than CI/Property Exchange.
-
- KVRist
- 186 posts since 12 Mar, 2011
Does this all mean that I can't use MPE from Linnstrument with hardware synth if I have:
-Linnstrument
-A hardware synth that supports "Per note expressive stuff" of MIDI 2.0 but not MIDI 1.0 MPE
-DAW that supports "Per note expressive stuff" of MIDI 2.0 and MIDI 1.0 MPE
?
-Linnstrument
-A hardware synth that supports "Per note expressive stuff" of MIDI 2.0 but not MIDI 1.0 MPE
-DAW that supports "Per note expressive stuff" of MIDI 2.0 and MIDI 1.0 MPE
?
-
- KVRist
- 321 posts since 8 Jul, 2009
If that scenario ever actually exists in practice, there is every chance that some/many DAWs will convert your incoming MPE to MIDI 2.0 per note expressive messages that the synth will respond to.Kalee wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2024 1:45 pm Does this all mean that I can't use MPE from Linnstrument with hardware synth if I have:
-Linnstrument
-A hardware synth that supports "Per note expressive stuff" of MIDI 2.0 but not MIDI 1.0 MPE
-DAW that supports "Per note expressive stuff" of MIDI 2.0 and MIDI 1.0 MPE
?
Of course its too early to say for sure, because no such hardware synth exists, and only a few DAWs are just at the first stage of adding support for certain MIDI 2.0 features.
Even if your DAW of choice failed to implement such conversion, someone else will be able to write a live MIDI conversion utility. Including for very small little computers (raspberry pi type stuff) that could be used as a glorified conversion dongle if you wanted to use a MPE controller with a hardware synth without having a full on computer with DAW as part of the setup. Even someone with my level of coding ability could do it. Even at this early stage of MIDI 2.0 I could already do it, but it would be a lot more effort than it will be when more libraries with MIDI 2.0 support exist, and it would be a pointless exercise given the lack of MIDI 2.0 synths. All the same if my life depended on it I could already do it, although I would have to use WoodSynth (a software synth) instead of a hardware synth to actually test that it worked. And I wouldnt gain anything at this stage, because WoodSynth already supports both MPE and MIDI 2.0 per note expressive stuff.
Or someone else will make a proper hardware device that can handle the conversion, if we actually ended up with an era where there was an awkward gap and some resulting consumer demand to bridge that gap in that way.
