I keep noticing that whenever I create a sampler instrument in MSF, the region keyboard always shows the notes one octave higher than the Logic piano roll. For instance, if I enter a note at C4 in Logic, the Region keyboard display and all related controls in MSF treats it as C5.
There are no transpositions enabled anywhere in Logic that I'm aware of, and it happens in a fresh factory default new Logic project. It always happens every time starting from a factory default setting for MSF, and while I haven't paid attention for all my other VI's, I did check that Kontakt does not have this issue.
I have no idea if this is a Logic issue, a MSF issue or what. I've noticed it for a while, but it hasn't been a priority to dig into. I'm not sure if it applies to other types of instruments created in MSF or to other Melda instruments. I just happen to be creating a set of sampler based MSF instruments lately so that's where I've noticed it.
Not a huge deal, but I am trying to get things ironed out for pitched instruments, so I figured I might as well ask if anyone else has encountered this, and if there's anything in particular I might be able to do about it.
Octave mismatch between Logic and MSF sampler regions keyboard (C4 shows up in MSF as C5)
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- KVRian
- 915 posts since 2 May, 2015
yup, it's a pain. Try "Logic Pro > Preferences > Display" where you will get to choose either Yamaha or Roland...hth.../s~
mba m2 15" | 16gig.ram | 1tb ssd | macOS 26.1 Tahoe
logic 11.2.2 | reaper 7.75 | cubase 14.0.4
focusrite.2i2 | A&H CQ18t
logic 11.2.2 | reaper 7.75 | cubase 14.0.4
focusrite.2i2 | A&H CQ18t
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- KVRAF
- 10376 posts since 2 Sep, 2003 from Surrey, UK
It is all by design and applies to all MeldaProduction software. The MIDI note naming standard in the software names MIDI note 0 as C-1, so "middle C" (MIDI note 60, about 261.6 Hz) is named C4. This is in accordance with the naming used by Roland.
Many DAWs and many other software instruments (and Yamaha) name MIDI note 0 as C-2, so "middle C" is named C3. And some other DAWS name it C5
All is well, just program the notes in your DAW as usual and you will get the right sound,
Many DAWs and many other software instruments (and Yamaha) name MIDI note 0 as C-2, so "middle C" is named C3. And some other DAWS name it C5
All is well, just program the notes in your DAW as usual and you will get the right sound,
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- KVRian
- 965 posts since 12 May, 2019
Emagic originally developed Logic and was based in Germany. For whatever reason, many German developers choose to use C3 as the octave designation for middle C. The origin of this is Yamaha, based on my investigation.
This is something of a hot topic but to debate it is in vain. The only thing you need to concern yourself with is that the developer or manufacturer is consistent within their ecosystem. Renoise uses C5 which is actually the most 'MIDI' way to think of it. Reaper, Roland, Melda, the scientific community, and probably most musicians - particularly pianists - use C4. Yamaha, Steinberg, Ableton, Native Instruments, and Presonus use C3. Presonus is unique here because, despite being an 'American company', their original DAW developers are German.
If I could wave my magic wand, we'd all use C4. The problem is that, if I have a magic wand then so do the C3 proponents so they'd just wave it right back. Until magic prevails, you need to lock in one reference or another so you can mentally adjust. Just know that this is not really an 'issue' as most people would consider it.
It's no more of an issue than Germans speaking German and Brazilians speaking Portuguese. Technically, it's mostly irrelevant. Expect to see more threads in the future about this on various forums because it's a perennial cause of confusion.
This is something of a hot topic but to debate it is in vain. The only thing you need to concern yourself with is that the developer or manufacturer is consistent within their ecosystem. Renoise uses C5 which is actually the most 'MIDI' way to think of it. Reaper, Roland, Melda, the scientific community, and probably most musicians - particularly pianists - use C4. Yamaha, Steinberg, Ableton, Native Instruments, and Presonus use C3. Presonus is unique here because, despite being an 'American company', their original DAW developers are German.
If I could wave my magic wand, we'd all use C4. The problem is that, if I have a magic wand then so do the C3 proponents so they'd just wave it right back. Until magic prevails, you need to lock in one reference or another so you can mentally adjust. Just know that this is not really an 'issue' as most people would consider it.
It's no more of an issue than Germans speaking German and Brazilians speaking Portuguese. Technically, it's mostly irrelevant. Expect to see more threads in the future about this on various forums because it's a perennial cause of confusion.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 452 posts since 21 Jul, 2018
Makes sense. What I find interesting is that I somehow missed this back in the day when I had a small rack of hardware synths. I'm not sure. I must have run into it at some point, but I don't consciously remember taking note of it.
I've had several controllers in the meantime too. Not sure whether they just happened to match, or whether I wasn't paying attention, or it just didn't matter at the time for what I was doing. Or, maybe I was just so used to constantly transposing things since I tend to always write in the same key that I just never thought twice about needing transposition. Somehow it was never an issue until now.
Maybe just because I'm now trying to create standardized instruments within the Melda ecosystem in preparation of a potential jump from Logic over the next year or so, and it's all based on specific octaves with sub instruments, bass instruments, tuned bells, etc and many of them have keyboard splits set up so I have, for instance 4 bells that can play in the same octave, but they are split over different octave regions so they can be called up as a single group instrument.
Suddenly, the octaves matter.
I've had several controllers in the meantime too. Not sure whether they just happened to match, or whether I wasn't paying attention, or it just didn't matter at the time for what I was doing. Or, maybe I was just so used to constantly transposing things since I tend to always write in the same key that I just never thought twice about needing transposition. Somehow it was never an issue until now.
Maybe just because I'm now trying to create standardized instruments within the Melda ecosystem in preparation of a potential jump from Logic over the next year or so, and it's all based on specific octaves with sub instruments, bass instruments, tuned bells, etc and many of them have keyboard splits set up so I have, for instance 4 bells that can play in the same octave, but they are split over different octave regions so they can be called up as a single group instrument.
Suddenly, the octaves matter.
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- KVRian
- 965 posts since 12 May, 2019
Yes this is definitely one of those doesn't-matter-till-it-does situations. What makes it worse is that, say for Native Instruments, they'll have patches transposed all over. For example, basses. If you play middle C, you might get 262Hz or 131Hz or 65.5Hz as a fundamental. Depends how they transposed the oscillators or imported the sample.
This would be convenient, perhaps, if it were consistent. After all, basses should be low. In practice, however, it virtually makes octave-naming conventions all the more confusing. I was going to say irrelevant but, as we know, octave designations are very relevant - for humans.
In my last post, I said 'mostly irrelevant' and by that I mean technically and according to computers. As far as I know, octave designation is just a UI matter. Computers just see the binary MIDI value and that, itself, has no octave designation.
I did come up with a way to memorize the frequency values of every note to at least 99.20% (less than 1 cent off - basically imperceptible) accuracy. Let's please not debate its usefulness - either you'll see its value or you won't - but here's the link if you're interested:
The reason I mention it is it's one more way for you to think of, divide, and communicate the audio bandwidth. Again, either it's for your or isn't. Personally, I find it exceedingly helpful - particularly in situations such as these.
This would be convenient, perhaps, if it were consistent. After all, basses should be low. In practice, however, it virtually makes octave-naming conventions all the more confusing. I was going to say irrelevant but, as we know, octave designations are very relevant - for humans.
In my last post, I said 'mostly irrelevant' and by that I mean technically and according to computers. As far as I know, octave designation is just a UI matter. Computers just see the binary MIDI value and that, itself, has no octave designation.
I did come up with a way to memorize the frequency values of every note to at least 99.20% (less than 1 cent off - basically imperceptible) accuracy. Let's please not debate its usefulness - either you'll see its value or you won't - but here's the link if you're interested:
The reason I mention it is it's one more way for you to think of, divide, and communicate the audio bandwidth. Again, either it's for your or isn't. Personally, I find it exceedingly helpful - particularly in situations such as these.