u-he

MitchK1989 · Post by **MitchK1989** » Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:59 pm

Polyphonic modulation (without resorting to destructive automation) in bitwig with CLAP plugins has me fully sold already.

machinesworking · Post by **machinesworking** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:06 am

apoclypse wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:48 pm Probably never for these three DAWs. Live will take their sweet time, Studio One would probably be willing if there was enough adoption.

I would bet that obviously Bitwig, but also FL Studio, Studio One and Digital Performer all be early adopters. Bitwig because they're in on the ground floor, Studio One because PreSonus would I bet like to not be tied to Apple and Avid. FL and DP because they already have an internal format, so wrapping a new one isn't a big deal. MOTU introduced VST on Mac version of DP months after releasing the VST Windows version upon popular demand. Reaper will do it just because, then Ableton will follow the pack.

If I were a developer interested in starting this up with a bang I would reach out to MOTU and PreSonus, IMO Image Line, Cockos, Bitwig, are going to be early adopters. You then might get Cubase, Logic and PT "wrappers", and you've slayed the giants.

The smaller developers will come along as well.

pekbro · Post by **pekbro** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:11 am

I like it, tho, I will likely make crude jokes about the name at times.

machinesworking · Post by **machinesworking** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:21 am

pekbro wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:11 am I like it, tho, I will likely make crude jokes about the name at times.

The name is pretty bad, good acronyms aren't hard people. Universal Audio Format, Plugin Audio System, Unchained Plugins, Music Audio Plugin, etc. etc. AUF, PAS, UP, MAP are all better and took 2 seconds to cook up... I like AUF, sounds like the German word auf which is still good as on or up etc.

Funkybot's Evil Twin · Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:24 am

Will it allow for things like:

1. Easy sidechaining (assuming that's a given)?
2. Easy handling of multiple audio channels (also assuming this is a given)?
3. MIDI Out from FX/Instruments?
4. MIDI Pass-Thru?
5. Plugin to Plugin communication? You know like cross-talk from the neighboring channel on a console sim, or scopes that show data on other channels, etc.?

perpetual3 · Post by **perpetual3** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:32 am

MitchK1989 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:59 pm Polyphonic modulation (without resorting to destructive automation) in bitwig with CLAP plugins has me fully sold already.

Yeah me too!

gentleclockdivider · Post by **gentleclockdivider** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:57 am

Not really convinced by the name 'clap ' aka Gonorrhea

perpetual3 · Post by **perpetual3** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:59 am

Yeah, it’s pretty bad BUT THE CONCEPT MAN.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:08 am

The question "so who's gonna support it?" is pretty much what has killed all prior efforts to do this. So we took it out off the equation. It's simply not important.

For any developer who starts out or wants to have a solid base, CLAP is gonna be an easy choice. All other formats can be abstracted from it. For AU we (u-he, not CLAP devs) have planned to offer a CLAP-to-AU wrapper for developers. So you do CLAP, you get AU for free. For some other formats it's possible to create open source adapters, for some it needs to be closed source. The host manufacturers can deploy these adapters themselves, the plug-in manufacturers can add them to their CLAP installers, or the users can install them.

The gist is: A CLAP plug-in can tell its wrappers and adapters what it would be like if it was that kind of plug-in. So developers can smoothly transition their existing codebase to CLAP and still support pretty much all other formats as if they were developing for these directly. Additionally, hosts can "upgrade" any legacy format to the CLAP counterparts of the plug-ins. SO if people lose the ability to keep their VST2 plug-ins up to date, a host that supports CLAP can open old projects and switch to CLAP instead, with minimum effort on the plug-in developer side.

Another goal is to separate ones own development from the actual development of plug-in formats. Syncing changes in plug-in formats isn't always easy and it has slowed us down several times. It's a good idea to abstract whatever plug-in format in a way that keeps one's own code independent of the specifics of plug-in formats and/or platforms. CLAP lends itself to be the intermediate layer. Moreover, developers can share the CLAP-to-X adapters and thus bypass the extra effort to support these. Stuff like that pretty much only works with open formats and it'll overall improve compatibility.

Hence, even if no host is ever gonna support it (I doubt they won't... because... well), CLAP can deliver an added value to developers.

zvenx · Post by **zvenx** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:11 am

Got ya..
Do wrappers come with overhead?

rsp

THE INTRANCER · Post by **THE INTRANCER** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:37 am

I thought when I initially saw the acronym, that there was a new environment to rival Reaktor in building VST like instruments or an alternative to Reasons RE's. Sadly, it's not the case.

machinesworking · Post by **machinesworking** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:41 am

Urs wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:08 am Hence, even if no host is ever gonna support it (I doubt they won't... because... well), CLAP can deliver an added value to developers.

Urs, hopefully you read my post, I'm thinking if you guys really want this taking off, getting the cross platform DAW developers to adopt it as a native format without a wrapper is going to make it take off IMO. Bitwig obviously, FL, DP, Reaper and Studio One are all obvious places to start..

Reaper is almost a given, FL, DP and Studio one adopt it and the rest will fall in line I bet. From what you've described there's hardly an argument that plug in developers won't like it.

Also, one question, what is the plug in evaluation status of this? is that a DAW by DAW thing? I always thought the AU one was tied to the OS, but VST was DAW by DAW??

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:41 am

Reading thus far, the main thing I'm worried about with regards to adoption of the format is that it will require huge architectural changes for the DAWs to support it FULLY, I think.

It's one thing to just being able to load and run a CLAP plugin, but - it seems to me - completely another to be able to leverage the polyphonic, non-destructive modulation and multi-threading, no? Just looking at Live for example, they claim e.g. Wavetable is MPE now, but there's no way to have a modulation source - say a simple Shaper envelope - to affect voices separately, because a) modulation in Live isn't additive to static parameter and b) it's not polyphonic. Many DAWs, e.g. Studio One, don't even have devices that could be used as modulation sources.

With regards to multi-threading I'm aware that Bitwig tries to leverage any opportunity to parallelise the load, so whenver you use a Layer, Selector, XY or Splitter it does that. Do other DAWs do that as well? Racks in Live? Multi-Instruments in Studio One? Patcher in FL?

Won't it create a world where the same CLAP plugin works very differently in Bitwig and e.g. in Live or Studio One? As a Bitwig user primarily I wouldn't mind that, but that might considerably hinder - or at least delay - adoption of the format.

sonnie · Post by **sonnie** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:25 am

Maybe I missed it:
What is the benefit over LV2, an already existing open source plug-in standard?
Is it just a "dev" thing?

machinesworking · Post by **machinesworking** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:46 am

antic604 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:41 am Reading thus far, the main thing I'm worried about with regards to adoption of the format is that it will require huge architectural changes for the DAWs to support it FULLY, I think.

You're overthinking it, the AU spec for years has had the ability to send MIDI out, but hardly any DAW implements it. My guess is it's not as easy as with VST, but the bigger picture is AU hasn't really been hindered by less features.

FL Studio and Digital Performer have their own internal plug in formats, in the case of DP MAS is still a thing for a few developers, Audio Ease, Vienna with the VEP plug in etc. In theory anyway CLAP is just another wrapper for them, not a completer rewrite. MAS was done extremely thoroughly back in the day but it's possible some things work better in Bitwig etc. time might have caught up with it.

Anyway point is it's not a huge deal if a DAW can't do polyphonic modulation, the modular nature of Bitwig is cool, but it's not necessary to everyone. As far as DP anyway, I would bet MOTU would love to ditch both AU and VST3 if they could, VST3 is a mess in DP.

u-he

KVR Audio

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