Dear All.
I'm not a plugin creator, but I love Maizeplayer-powered plugins because the sounds are usually utterly gorgeous! Thing IS - they always come up as being 16-slot multitimbral but you can't use the other 15 slots, only the first one. For years I thought that was just lazy programming on the VST creators' part and put up with it because the sounds were so good - BUT - they seriously clog up memory because each instance loads all the sounds into it. So if you wanted to use 8 sounds you'd be loading 8 instances. If each instance had 50 presets, that would be 400 PRESETS IN MEMORY even though you were only using 8 of them!
Which seriously limited my ability to use the things!
Then I read there was a big bug in Maizeplayer that stopped its multitimbrality from being used. Nobody said what the bug WAS, just there was one and the creator had never fixed it. Only just found this forum about it but got 3 questions.
First - has the bug been fixed yet - can Maizeplayers now be multitimbral?
Second - If 'Yes', and I buy a copy of the Maizeplayer program from the Maizesoft website, can I use the multitimbrality to load presets from different Maizeplayer plugins into it? A BIT like Kontakt, able to load in presets written by different people so I can just have one Maizeplayer with up to 16 presets in from different Maizeplayer VSTs? That would enable me to mix'n'match sounds without having to load a VST AND all its sounds every time even though I only wanted to use 1 of them! (NO, I'm NOT thinking of mixing/matching plugins and doing anything nefarious like exporting the result as a VST to upload somewhere. Just to have a collection for 1 track without having to have tons of presets in memory I'm not going to be using - not got the world's biggest computer here!
Third - if Maizeplayers CAN be multitimbral, is it possible to get an old, non-multitimbral one, get its sounds from its sound folder (legally purchased/downloaded) put them into the Maizesoft software and export a new, properly multitimbral version that can hold up to 16 of its own presets at once?
Yours hopefully
Chris.
Has the Multitimbrality Bug been fixed yet?
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 142 posts since 15 Sep, 2008 from Hastings
-
- KVRist
- 84 posts since 30 Sep, 2006
Where did you hear that Maize plugins load ALL the presets into memory? By default, Maize plugins stream samples from disk.
I have a test project in Reaper with 8 tracks, each carrying one Maize plugin. The 8 plugins combined have over 1,640 presets totalling over 7GB in disk size. I can assure you Reaper is not loading all those presets into RAM! With those 8 plugins loaded Activity Monitor shows Reaper idling at around 250MB RAM usage. With all the plugins removed it drops to 130MB.
I'll answer your other questions to the best of my knowledge:
1. I've never made a multitimbral/multi-output plugin with Maize but I've never heard of the bug you mention. Where did you read about it?
2. I doubt very much that this would work. You would need the source files for the instruments you wanted to combine. It *is* possible to put MSE files from different instruments into a single plugin's folder but versions numbers come into play here. The version of the Maize that exported the instrument must be compatible with the version that exported the plugin player.
3. Maize plugins don't have a 'sounds folder'. Each instrument is exported from Maize as an MSE file. Inside that file is all the information for the instrument including the encrypted audio files. It isn't possible (at least it isn't easy) to reverse engineer the exported instruments to recover the audio files.
To be clear - when you say multitimbral do you also mean multi-output? So each instrument has its own audio output from the plugin? Or do you just mean multiple instruments all coming out of a single stereo output?
I have a test project in Reaper with 8 tracks, each carrying one Maize plugin. The 8 plugins combined have over 1,640 presets totalling over 7GB in disk size. I can assure you Reaper is not loading all those presets into RAM! With those 8 plugins loaded Activity Monitor shows Reaper idling at around 250MB RAM usage. With all the plugins removed it drops to 130MB.
I'll answer your other questions to the best of my knowledge:
1. I've never made a multitimbral/multi-output plugin with Maize but I've never heard of the bug you mention. Where did you read about it?
2. I doubt very much that this would work. You would need the source files for the instruments you wanted to combine. It *is* possible to put MSE files from different instruments into a single plugin's folder but versions numbers come into play here. The version of the Maize that exported the instrument must be compatible with the version that exported the plugin player.
3. Maize plugins don't have a 'sounds folder'. Each instrument is exported from Maize as an MSE file. Inside that file is all the information for the instrument including the encrypted audio files. It isn't possible (at least it isn't easy) to reverse engineer the exported instruments to recover the audio files.
To be clear - when you say multitimbral do you also mean multi-output? So each instrument has its own audio output from the plugin? Or do you just mean multiple instruments all coming out of a single stereo output?
Plugins: https://meatbeats.com
Music: https://dannytaurus.bandcamp.com
Project: https://klippr.video
Music: https://dannytaurus.bandcamp.com
Project: https://klippr.video
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 142 posts since 15 Sep, 2008 from Hastings
Dear Danny and everyone.
This one's Infinity with loads of really good pads in it and, as you can see, 16 strips. My DAW's got it as 16-bit multitimbral. Which means it THINKS you can load up to 16 sounds at once into one instance of it - which would be wonderful if only Infinity was of the same opinion - I can't find any way to ACCESS the other 15 strips, only the first one! And they're all like that. Every Maizeplayer VST I've come across - even ones that only have one sound in 'em, like Atmos 2 - come up saying they've got 16 strips, therefore spaces for 16 sounds at once in one instance. And you can't access the other strips.
So I did a ton of research into why and discovered Maizeplayer's always had this bug - when it compiles, the other strips come up as unusable. Apparently people have been asking its inventor to fix the bug for ages but he hasn't done so yet - to my knowledge. That's why I was wondering if he had done yet - and, if he had done, if I could download a version (after buying it, of course, not after freebies here!) where the multitimbrality actually WORKS and use that to put multiple presets at once into, just as though I was using Kontakt or similar. (Or UVI Workstation, or Sampletank or anything like that.)
Thinking it was loading all the presets into memory at once was my ignorance - I saw all the names in the list so presumed it must've loaded them all in. Thanks for putting me right on that. It's just it would be great to be able to load several sounds at once, mix 'em in the VST and output the combined sound to one MIDI track, like you can do with the Korg M1 Emulator which I have - but Maizeplayer sounds are GORGEOUS on the whole - especially Infinity's - it's just if you want 11 sounds you have to load 11 instances and that munches memory bigstyle! And if you want to use a few other Maizeplayer VSTs on the same track, you end up running outta computer. All these sounds I'd love to use at once in things that call themselves multitimbral but aren't because of a software bug.....
Gonna try to insert a picture at this point, might have to have two shots at it because pics. only show up in Preview and Submitted versions here, not drafts.... here goes....!!
Think it worked! See - if you look along the back you'll see my DAW thinks Infinity's got 16 slots. It's just you can't ACCESS 15 of 'em in the VST itself. Forgotten where I read about the unfixed multitimbrality bug but there it is in all its glory! Surely he's fixed it by now, no?
This one's Infinity with loads of really good pads in it and, as you can see, 16 strips. My DAW's got it as 16-bit multitimbral. Which means it THINKS you can load up to 16 sounds at once into one instance of it - which would be wonderful if only Infinity was of the same opinion - I can't find any way to ACCESS the other 15 strips, only the first one! And they're all like that. Every Maizeplayer VST I've come across - even ones that only have one sound in 'em, like Atmos 2 - come up saying they've got 16 strips, therefore spaces for 16 sounds at once in one instance. And you can't access the other strips.
So I did a ton of research into why and discovered Maizeplayer's always had this bug - when it compiles, the other strips come up as unusable. Apparently people have been asking its inventor to fix the bug for ages but he hasn't done so yet - to my knowledge. That's why I was wondering if he had done yet - and, if he had done, if I could download a version (after buying it, of course, not after freebies here!) where the multitimbrality actually WORKS and use that to put multiple presets at once into, just as though I was using Kontakt or similar. (Or UVI Workstation, or Sampletank or anything like that.)
Thinking it was loading all the presets into memory at once was my ignorance - I saw all the names in the list so presumed it must've loaded them all in. Thanks for putting me right on that. It's just it would be great to be able to load several sounds at once, mix 'em in the VST and output the combined sound to one MIDI track, like you can do with the Korg M1 Emulator which I have - but Maizeplayer sounds are GORGEOUS on the whole - especially Infinity's - it's just if you want 11 sounds you have to load 11 instances and that munches memory bigstyle! And if you want to use a few other Maizeplayer VSTs on the same track, you end up running outta computer. All these sounds I'd love to use at once in things that call themselves multitimbral but aren't because of a software bug.....
Gonna try to insert a picture at this point, might have to have two shots at it because pics. only show up in Preview and Submitted versions here, not drafts.... here goes....!!
Think it worked! See - if you look along the back you'll see my DAW thinks Infinity's got 16 slots. It's just you can't ACCESS 15 of 'em in the VST itself. Forgotten where I read about the unfixed multitimbrality bug but there it is in all its glory! Surely he's fixed it by now, no?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 142 posts since 15 Sep, 2008 from Hastings
It missed out the last bit of my reply cos I put a picture in and you can't put text after pictures here (that I know of!)
Look along the back and you'll see what I mean - my DAW thinks Infinity's got 16 slots, so therefore should be able to hold 16 sounds from that list at once. Except you can't access the other 15 channels in Infinity itself. It would be AWESOME if you could, like you can in the Korg M1 Emulator (I know that's not a maizeplayer, just an example) so you could mix sounds in the VST and output them to one MIDI channel.
Forgotten where I read about the Maizeplayer Multitimbrality Bug, was on a forum somewheres awhile back - but was a long thread all about it.
Thanks for putting me straight about the preset loading - do you know if the multitimbrality's been fixed yet, so you can actually ACCESS the other slots that show up in a DAW? If I load - say - 4 instances of Infinity, it tells me I've got 64 tracks, but I can only access 4 of them!! (Nope, that's not a bug in my DAW, works fine for anything else multitimbral. As long as it's not a Maizesampler thingy! But on the whole - Maizesamplers have gorgeous sounds, this is very true, that's why I'd love to be able to use more than 1 of them in one instance at once.)
Yours puzzledly
Chris.
Look along the back and you'll see what I mean - my DAW thinks Infinity's got 16 slots, so therefore should be able to hold 16 sounds from that list at once. Except you can't access the other 15 channels in Infinity itself. It would be AWESOME if you could, like you can in the Korg M1 Emulator (I know that's not a maizeplayer, just an example) so you could mix sounds in the VST and output them to one MIDI channel.
Forgotten where I read about the Maizeplayer Multitimbrality Bug, was on a forum somewheres awhile back - but was a long thread all about it.
Thanks for putting me straight about the preset loading - do you know if the multitimbrality's been fixed yet, so you can actually ACCESS the other slots that show up in a DAW? If I load - say - 4 instances of Infinity, it tells me I've got 64 tracks, but I can only access 4 of them!! (Nope, that's not a bug in my DAW, works fine for anything else multitimbral. As long as it's not a Maizesampler thingy! But on the whole - Maizesamplers have gorgeous sounds, this is very true, that's why I'd love to be able to use more than 1 of them in one instance at once.)
Yours puzzledly
Chris.
-
- KVRist
- 84 posts since 30 Sep, 2006
Maize Sampler has 32 outputs which present themselves to the DAW as 16 stereo output. The plugin developer is able to send audio to any of the 16 stereo outputs. If the developer of the plugin doesn't use the extra outputs then there will be nothing coming out of them. If the developer DOES decide to use the extra outputs the DAW will be able to access the audio on them.
All of my plugins, for instance, only send audio to the main 1/2 outputs. The DAW still sees them as 32-output but only outputs 1 and 2 carry audio.
A developer is able to use Maize Sampler to build plugins with sounds on 16 separate MIDI channels routed to 16 separate stereo outputs. But the fact is most Maize developers simply don't.
I can see why it might be confusing when the DAW tells you the Maize-powered plugins have 16 stereo outputs but it's really down to the developer the implement multitimbrality.
One could argue that during compilation, Maize Sampler could detect how many outputs the developer has utilized in the plugin and only compile with that many outputs. That would mean a simple stereo Maize plugin would present to the DAW with just a single stereo output. But frankly that sounds like more trouble than its worth.
Maybe you should do a test and see how much actual system resources it takes to have several Maize plugins loaded, each playing a separate sound. It might be far less than you assume. In my experience Maize plugins are extremely lightweight and consume very little system resource.
All of my plugins, for instance, only send audio to the main 1/2 outputs. The DAW still sees them as 32-output but only outputs 1 and 2 carry audio.
A developer is able to use Maize Sampler to build plugins with sounds on 16 separate MIDI channels routed to 16 separate stereo outputs. But the fact is most Maize developers simply don't.
I can see why it might be confusing when the DAW tells you the Maize-powered plugins have 16 stereo outputs but it's really down to the developer the implement multitimbrality.
One could argue that during compilation, Maize Sampler could detect how many outputs the developer has utilized in the plugin and only compile with that many outputs. That would mean a simple stereo Maize plugin would present to the DAW with just a single stereo output. But frankly that sounds like more trouble than its worth.
Maybe you should do a test and see how much actual system resources it takes to have several Maize plugins loaded, each playing a separate sound. It might be far less than you assume. In my experience Maize plugins are extremely lightweight and consume very little system resource.
Plugins: https://meatbeats.com
Music: https://dannytaurus.bandcamp.com
Project: https://klippr.video
Music: https://dannytaurus.bandcamp.com
Project: https://klippr.video
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 142 posts since 15 Sep, 2008 from Hastings
Dear Dannytaurus.
Thankyou for your wonderful - no sarcasm - explanation - this Asperger's guy totally understood it! Confession time - I've got a weirdo DAW that LURVES multitimbrality. It's got 8 instrument slots. If the instrument's multitimbral, you get 8 x 16 staves - it's pure notation - so 126 staves plus 1 for the out buss. If the instrument's monotimbral, of course you get 8 sounds max! (Or any combination in between - I'm trying to get the hang of Chainer, with mixed results. Some things like it WAHAAY better than others!)
My first Maizeplayer was Infinity by Irish Acts - I listened to the sounds and my jaw dropped. Then I saw 16 Channels had come up and thought 'WOW!! Glorious sounds with 16 channels to load 'em into.' And tried to find the extra channels to load the extra sounds into - exactly, I thought, like the Korg M1 Emulator or Kontakt or similar - and couldn't find access to them. Thinking I was being particularly stoopid - not an uncommon occurrence - I wrote to the Infinity guy who said 'What other channels?' Then I got other Maizeplayers and they were ALL doing it. First I thought it was a prob. with my DAW, then I read there was a bug in the Maizeplayer compiler that stopped the other channels from being used, now I know it's just laziness on the part of the sound designers. Wonder WHY they're too lazy to implement all the channels. As they're all the same file format, do you think it would be possible to design a UNIVERSAL Maizeplayer, with ALL SIXTEEN channels working, you could load any .MSE soundfiles into, like a Kontakt for Maizeplayer sounds?
BTW - if you want a Maizeplayer with an INCREDIBLY useful sound, that's free, go for Atmos 2. Turn off the Atmos - you'll see what I mean when/if you see it - turn the piano on full and you get a really, really good piano. BUT.... if you want a lurvely, slightly shivery reverb - turn the piano off, the Atmos on full, double-up a MIDI track of notes, have one track being played by the original sound, the other by the Atmos. It comes over as a beautiful, ghostly, Halloween reverb that's awesome on Goth-ish New Age tracks if you want people to have sweet nightmares, not sweet dreams!
What do you think of the Universal Maizeplayer idea? I was a programmer once - if you like it I'll have a crack at it. (Not promising I could do it but I'd give it a shot if you think it might work.)
Yours respectfully
Chris.
Thankyou for your wonderful - no sarcasm - explanation - this Asperger's guy totally understood it! Confession time - I've got a weirdo DAW that LURVES multitimbrality. It's got 8 instrument slots. If the instrument's multitimbral, you get 8 x 16 staves - it's pure notation - so 126 staves plus 1 for the out buss. If the instrument's monotimbral, of course you get 8 sounds max! (Or any combination in between - I'm trying to get the hang of Chainer, with mixed results. Some things like it WAHAAY better than others!)
My first Maizeplayer was Infinity by Irish Acts - I listened to the sounds and my jaw dropped. Then I saw 16 Channels had come up and thought 'WOW!! Glorious sounds with 16 channels to load 'em into.' And tried to find the extra channels to load the extra sounds into - exactly, I thought, like the Korg M1 Emulator or Kontakt or similar - and couldn't find access to them. Thinking I was being particularly stoopid - not an uncommon occurrence - I wrote to the Infinity guy who said 'What other channels?' Then I got other Maizeplayers and they were ALL doing it. First I thought it was a prob. with my DAW, then I read there was a bug in the Maizeplayer compiler that stopped the other channels from being used, now I know it's just laziness on the part of the sound designers. Wonder WHY they're too lazy to implement all the channels. As they're all the same file format, do you think it would be possible to design a UNIVERSAL Maizeplayer, with ALL SIXTEEN channels working, you could load any .MSE soundfiles into, like a Kontakt for Maizeplayer sounds?
BTW - if you want a Maizeplayer with an INCREDIBLY useful sound, that's free, go for Atmos 2. Turn off the Atmos - you'll see what I mean when/if you see it - turn the piano on full and you get a really, really good piano. BUT.... if you want a lurvely, slightly shivery reverb - turn the piano off, the Atmos on full, double-up a MIDI track of notes, have one track being played by the original sound, the other by the Atmos. It comes over as a beautiful, ghostly, Halloween reverb that's awesome on Goth-ish New Age tracks if you want people to have sweet nightmares, not sweet dreams!
What do you think of the Universal Maizeplayer idea? I was a programmer once - if you like it I'll have a crack at it. (Not promising I could do it but I'd give it a shot if you think it might work.)
Yours respectfully
Chris.
-
- KVRist
- 153 posts since 2 Dec, 2016 from Palma de Mallorca
ulrichburke wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:11 am Dear Dannytaurus.
Thankyou for your wonderful - no sarcasm - explanation - this Asperger's guy totally understood it! Confession time - I've got a weirdo DAW that LURVES multitimbrality. It's got 8 instrument slots. If the instrument's multitimbral, you get 8 x 16 staves - it's pure notation - so 126 staves plus 1 for the out buss. If the instrument's monotimbral, of course you get 8 sounds max! (Or any combination in between - I'm trying to get the hang of Chainer, with mixed results. Some things like it WAHAAY better than others!)
My first Maizeplayer was Infinity by Irish Acts - I listened to the sounds and my jaw dropped. Then I saw 16 Channels had come up and thought 'WOW!! Glorious sounds with 16 channels to load 'em into.' And tried to find the extra channels to load the extra sounds into - exactly, I thought, like the Korg M1 Emulator or Kontakt or similar - and couldn't find access to them. Thinking I was being particularly stoopid - not an uncommon occurrence - I wrote to the Infinity guy who said 'What other channels?' Then I got other Maizeplayers and they were ALL doing it. First I thought it was a prob. with my DAW, then I read there was a bug in the Maizeplayer compiler that stopped the other channels from being used, now I know it's just laziness on the part of the sound designers. Wonder WHY they're too lazy to implement all the channels. As they're all the same file format, do you think it would be possible to design a UNIVERSAL Maizeplayer, with ALL SIXTEEN channels working, you could load any .MSE soundfiles into, like a Kontakt for Maizeplayer sounds?
BTW - if you want a Maizeplayer with an INCREDIBLY useful sound, that's free, go for Atmos 2. Turn off the Atmos - you'll see what I mean when/if you see it - turn the piano on full and you get a really, really good piano. BUT.... if you want a lurvely, slightly shivery reverb - turn the piano off, the Atmos on full, double-up a MIDI track of notes, have one track being played by the original sound, the other by the Atmos. It comes over as a beautiful, ghostly, Halloween reverb that's awesome on Goth-ish New Age tracks if you want people to have sweet nightmares, not sweet dreams!
What do you think of the Universal Maizeplayer idea? I was a programmer once - if you like it I'll have a crack at it. (Not promising I could do it but I'd give it a shot if you think it might work.)
Yours respectfully
Chris.
Thanks for mentioning Atmos 2, it's one of my instruments, I recently released version 3.
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 142 posts since 15 Sep, 2008 from Hastings
Well I'll be.... Fancy meeting the programmer of one of my fave VSTs - I mean that, I use its 'reverb' often! And the piano always when I want to use a piano - what's the point of getting one of those monster Kontakt jobs and having to EQ half of that off to hear the backing!?! With yours, you don't NEED to use EQ - it fits with strings just fine without it. Even with the Atmos turned off there's enough built-in reverb for it to have space around it without needing much reverb either.
Love your instruments. You going to be releasing any with what Mainstage calls 'worship pads' on, only (hopefully!) compatible with 32-bit DAWS on PCs? And what - serious question - do you think of releasing a Maizeplayer with ALL 16 slots working you could just drop any .MSE-s into, kinda like a Kontakt for .MSEs, so you could mix'n'match presets from different packages (again like Kontakt or similar) I just love .MSE sounds, I've got your Atmos, Infinity by Irish Acts, Hollywood Pads, Houston and they're ALL great. Just wondering if the release-a-universal-player thing would work for you like it does for Kontakt and the others.
Yours respectfully
Chris.
Love your instruments. You going to be releasing any with what Mainstage calls 'worship pads' on, only (hopefully!) compatible with 32-bit DAWS on PCs? And what - serious question - do you think of releasing a Maizeplayer with ALL 16 slots working you could just drop any .MSE-s into, kinda like a Kontakt for .MSEs, so you could mix'n'match presets from different packages (again like Kontakt or similar) I just love .MSE sounds, I've got your Atmos, Infinity by Irish Acts, Hollywood Pads, Houston and they're ALL great. Just wondering if the release-a-universal-player thing would work for you like it does for Kontakt and the others.
Yours respectfully
Chris.
