Where is Reason 13?

[jens]

I think Reason Studios is backed into a corner. They can't significantly change the app without alienating current users who like the application the way it is, but if they don't significantly change parts of the app, they can't attract new users. Reason Rack is them compromising, imo, but it also lost a little bit of its identity. It's a bit of a conundrum. I'm not sure how they can address that.

Nah - one of the best things about Reason is that they always managed to add new features in such an elegant way, that probably most every user either doesn't notice them (when they don't need them) or loves them. They totally know what good UI-design means/incorporates - they're very disciplined, aware and restrained. (Reason is the complete opposite to Reaper in that regard.)

So there imo absolutely is nothing to worry about in that regard. If they decide to add e.g. ARA, it will be done exactly right from the get-go (and work virtually bug-free right from the start) - same with everything else people in the DAW-camp wish for.

(And there won't be fifty options spread over ten menus affecting it which users will play around with frantically for weeks in order to find the one combination that might make the feature sort of doing the trick them)

[VOODOO U]

Still on the plus side: if he doesn't see your reply he can't answer it with some more of his weird drivel...

Yea no doubt. I couldnt even understand it sober.

[apoclypse]

I think Reason Studios is backed into a corner. They can't significantly change the app without alienating current users who like the application the way it is, but if they don't significantly change parts of the app, they can't attract new users. Reason Rack is them compromising, imo, but it also lost a little bit of its identity. It's a bit of a conundrum. I'm not sure how they can address that.

Nah - one of the best things about Reason is that they always managed to add new features in such an elegant way, that probably most every user either doesn't notice them (when they don't need them) or loves them. They totally know what good UI-design means/incorporates - they're very disciplined, aware and restrained. (Reason is the complete opposite to Reaper in that regard.)

So there imo absolutely is nothing to worry about in that regard. If they decide to add e.g. ARA, it will be done exactly right from the get-go (and work virtually bug-free right from the start) - same with everything else people in the DAW-camp wish for.

(And there won't be fifty options spread over ten menus affecting it which users will play around with frantically for weeks in order to find the one combination that might make the feature sort of doing the trick them)

I specifically said that they are having issues attracting new users to the platform. ARA2 isn’t going to magically fix that. Reason already has pitch editing. Reasons issue is deeper than not implementing a plugin protocol. They can’t make major changes to the DAW to attract new users or at least entice them from other DAWs without possibly losing existing users who like Reason for what it is. It’s a hard problem to solve. So they’ve sidestepped the issue for now by releasing Reason Rack.

[Jac459]

I think Reason Studios is backed into a corner. They can't significantly change the app without alienating current users who like the application the way it is, but if they don't significantly change parts of the app, they can't attract new users. Reason Rack is them compromising, imo, but it also lost a little bit of its identity. It's a bit of a conundrum. I'm not sure how they can address that.

Nah - one of the best things about Reason is that they always managed to add new features in such an elegant way, that probably most every user either doesn't notice them (when they don't need them) or loves them. They totally know what good UI-design means/incorporates - they're very disciplined, aware and restrained. (Reason is the complete opposite to Reaper in that regard.)

So there imo absolutely is nothing to worry about in that regard. If they decide to add e.g. ARA, it will be done exactly right from the get-go (and work virtually bug-free right from the start) - same with everything else people in the DAW-camp wish for.

(And there won't be fifty options spread over ten menus affecting it which users will play around with frantically for weeks in order to find the one combination that might make the feature sort of doing the trick them)

I specifically said that they are having issues attracting new users to the platform. ARA2 isn’t going to magically fix that. Reason already has pitch editing. Reasons issue is deeper than not implementing a plugin protocol. They can’t make major changes to the DAW to attract new users or at least entice them from other DAWs without possibly losing existing users who like Reason for what it is. It’s a hard problem to solve. So they’ve sidestepped the issue for now by releasing Reason Rack.

I agree with this view. If I were reason product manager I would quite struggle to choose the strategy to go to. In particular with their development speed being quite slow for the core part of the product.
It seems easier for them to create new plug-ins. I guess their core part is the DAW has some obsolete code with lost knowledge from the developers....

So they need to choose their next move very wisely.

[jens]

They can’t make major changes to the DAW to attract new users or at least entice them from other DAWs without possibly losing existing users who like Reason for what it is. It’s a hard problem to solve. So they’ve sidestepped the issue for now by releasing Reason Rack.

How/why/in what way would this be systematically different with Reason than with (say) Cubase, Ableton, or Studio One? Tbh I have absolutely no idea what you could be on about at this point...


By the way: "attrracting new users" is of course just one possible way of making income. Making existing license-owners upgrade is another one. (Plus then there's of course the RE shop and the subscriptions - I just don't get why you seem to put so much emphasis on "new users" as if that had to be their one and only business objective.)

So ARA2 isn’t going to magically fix that. Reason already has pitch editing. Reasons issue is deeper than not implementing a plugin protocol.

Oh boy, where do I start?

1) ARA was of course just one example of a crucial missing feature

2) ARA is NOT AT ALL just relevant for pitch-editing

3) ARA is NOT AT ALL just for Melodyne compatability

4) Even just Melodyne is not at all just for pitch-editing

5) Even just talking about Melodyne's pitch-editing, there is so much it can do Reason's (quite good) pitch-editor can't do:

- 5.1 the ability to quickly switch between different tracks from within the same editor window
- 5.2 the ability to show one track while you are editing another one
- 5.3 polyphonic pitch-editing
- 5.4 etc.

The lack of ARA is for me currently the main reason why I'm not using Reason anymore. it's highly unlikely that I will upgrade to a version that doesn't have this. ARA is just a mandatory at this point.

But they are in a great position to add it because they already have the seperate audio-editor window with its three different editor-tabs, so they basically just need to add a fourth one. I think they can implement it more elegantly than even Presonus managed to.

With MIDI loop-recording it's basically the same: they could add a comp-editor as a second tab. While they'd be at it, they could add a drum-editor in the same way.

Another super-crucial thing Reason completely lacks is at least some basic project-management features. As it is, you can't save an alternative version of a song without Reason copying over all the audio-files that are used in the project. So instead of a couple of mb, the diskspace required for even just an alternative mix might well be two gigs or more. Being able to seperate audio from the project-file has been requested for a years by many users and can also be implemented without "possibly losing existing users who like Reason for what it is".

Folder-tracks, another highly requested feature, can certainly be implemented in a way that is not gonna drive the existing user-base away in hordes.

And so forth...

[Trensharo]

I think Reason Studios is backed into a corner. They can't significantly change the app without alienating current users who like the application the way it is, but if they don't significantly change parts of the app, they can't attract new users. Reason Rack is them compromising, imo, but it also lost a little bit of its identity. It's a bit of a conundrum. I'm not sure how they can address that.

That was exactly my point.

They are in a no-win situation.

Reason Rack also forces them into competition with bundles like Komplete, Absolute, Total Studio, V Collection and others so they're competing against the entire DAW market as well as the virtual instrument market.

The rack is actually a nice evolution, but they've broadened the scope of competition for their product.

[Trensharo]

I think Reason Studios is backed into a corner. They can't significantly change the app without alienating current users who like the application the way it is, but if they don't significantly change parts of the app, they can't attract new users. Reason Rack is them compromising, imo, but it also lost a little bit of its identity. It's a bit of a conundrum. I'm not sure how they can address that.

Nah - one of the best things about Reason is that they always managed to add new features in such an elegant way, that probably most every user either doesn't notice them (when they don't need them) or loves them. They totally know what good UI-design means/incorporates - they're very disciplined, aware and restrained. (Reason is the complete opposite to Reaper in that regard.)

So there imo absolutely is nothing to worry about in that regard. If they decide to add e.g. ARA, it will be done exactly right from the get-go (and work virtually bug-free right from the start) - same with everything else people in the DAW-camp wish for.

(And there won't be fifty options spread over ten menus affecting it which users will play around with frantically for weeks in order to find the one combination that might make the feature sort of doing the trick them)

I specifically said that they are having issues attracting new users to the platform. ARA2 isn’t going to magically fix that. Reason already has pitch editing. Reasons issue is deeper than not implementing a plugin protocol. They can’t make major changes to the DAW to attract new users or at least entice them from other DAWs without possibly losing existing users who like Reason for what it is. It’s a hard problem to solve. So they’ve sidestepped the issue for now by releasing Reason Rack.

ARA2 is not just for Pitch Editing. SpectraLayers Pro, WaveLab Pro and Acoustica Premium are also ARA2 Extensions. AFAIK, Reason isn't Samplitude Pro X or Pro Tools-tier when it comes to Audio and Spectral Editing. ARA2 is important.

It also doesn't do polyphonic pitch editing, so being able to utilize Melodyne is still kind of important to some people. It's why Logic, DP, Samplitude Pro X and Cubase all have ARA2 support - despite having decent monophonic pitch editing built-in.

Finally, most people will exaggerate the need for something they personally want, so you have to keep that in mind when reading those posts.

I think the lack of VST MIDI Routing is a higher priority than ARA2, personally, but I also think it's a lower priority for Reason Studios as they would obliterate quite a few of their Players if they implemented that.

The reason why improving the Sequencer would be such a huge deal, is that it would remove the need for them to protect themselves in ways that are bad for their users because people would buy it for the DAW instead of gimmicks like Players that are only valuable because they have intentionally crippled the alternatives by refusing to implement features that allow them to work properly in their software.

[jens]

Oh, something I somehow forgot to mention earlier: of course Reason's built-in pitch editor is fully manual - there's no automatic way to correct a(ny) number of selected notes at once.

SpectraLayers Pro, WaveLab Pro and Acoustica Premium are also ARA2 Extensions.

Also RipX DAW, Repitch&Vocalign&Revoice Pro and Autotune ProX
(plus RX10 Music Rebalance&Spectral Editor in Logic)

[jens]

The rack is actually a nice evolution, but they've broadened the scope of competition for their product.

https://youtu.be/fksu6FENojY?si=qOqMrY9mYF5VabHD

[Trensharo]

Oh, something I somehow forgot to mention earlier: of course Reason's built-in pitch editor is fully manual - there's no automatic way to correct a(ny) number of selected notes at once.

SpectraLayers Pro, WaveLab Pro and Acoustica Premium are also ARA2 Extensions.

Also RipX DAW, Repitch&Vocalign&Revoice Pro and Autotune ProX
(plus RX10 Music Rebalance&Spectral Editor in Logic)

RX Music Rebalance and Spectral Editor only work in Logic via AU, and ARA for AudioUnits is basically broken unless you run the DAW under Rosetta 2. I think Pro Tools does bundle a customized version of the RX Spectral Editor ARA2 plug-in (AAX), though. Digital Performer automatically enables the VST3 over the Audio Units for Tested ARA2 plug-ins (Melodyne, SpectraLayers, etc.) to get around this.

Unfortunately, Logic is stuck with Audio Units and iZotope only supports Logic Pro for this.

Agree on the others, though. There are actually quite a few very useful ARA2 processes that people want to use. I expect more will come. I wouldn't be surprised if Sound Forge Pro goes ARA2 fairly soon (honestly).

If ACID Pro can implement ARA2, then Reason Studios definitely should be able to get this done.

[jens]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sound Forge Pro goes ARA2 fairly

Me neither - Samplitude Pro X8 (which is my main DAW atm) imo has the best ARA2 implementation at this point.

[vurt]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sound Forge Pro goes ARA2 fairly

Me neither - Samplitude Pro X8

pro x3 here
missed a few updates

[jens]

I went from X3 to X8... purchased a new bundle during the last BF craze since I wanted to upgrade Spectralayers anyway at that time and the whole Magix bundle (Suite) was only about a hundred bucks more or so... absurdly enough none of their hundreds of upgrade-offers they sent me over the years ever went that low...

These Magix-lads certainly know how to do business.

[xbitz]

I just saw a picture on ReasonTalk, and yeah, this is one solution too, I thought about it, but nah.

Screenshot 2024-02-12 at 11.06.44.png

For this, though, it would be handy if plugins(au,vst,clap) could be plugged into the RRP version

BTW, ARA is a nice feature, but for instance, an undo zoom wouldn't hurt either if you know what I mean.

[GregRband]

A quick Google will show that famed Producers like David Wills (Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, Phil Collins, Diana Ross, some of the greatest hits ever recorded) still loves and uses Reason.... How on Earth can Reason not be a "valid DAW" at that level of success?

Just because a highly successsful producer uses a piece of software doesn't make it valid in whatever sense. Did David write any of the hit songs using Reason?? I'm not sure we'll ever know that. He uses it, loves it, doesn't mean it was used on any successful production.

They all hold unique ways of doing production processes...

Right. Reason has a certain charm to it with the rack. To hell with its sequencer. Just load the rack as a vst in a modular DAW and have it as its own modular environment along with other VSTs.

If bands can record, mix, and release hit songs on a damn phone app, then.... well, all major DAWs are capable DAWs.

Which band(s) actually wrote a hit song(s) using phone apps? I'm definitely intrigued.

I can't find the video I remember about the song being completely done on this software, phone and ipad maybe.... but it was Linkin Park using Stagelight by Open Labs (now owned by Roland). I could swear that the song was release on their then album (marketing ploy?)... not sure, its been awhile. Probably was for the "Demo verson" of song idea that went on album....
Here is an bit I found referring to something about what I remembered from long ago...

Mike Shinoda, co-lead vocalist and producer ofLinkinPark, said, “I would recommend StageLight to anyone. It doesn’t matter if you’re just starting or a touring professional. It’s the perfect tool for anyone wanting to create or perform live.”

The song Mike created with StageLight can be found here: http://smarturl.it/LP_StageLight He invites users to listen and manipulate it in their own version and add to it. Mike will be appearing at Dell World in Austin,Texas this week to do a live demo of the program.