FM synth with VA operators?

[pdxindy]

I'm looking forward to trying Sytrus when its ready for the mac. So many people love the way it sounds.

I'm not personally looking to frequency modulate complex waveforms. Generally that is going to be difficult to get musical sounding tones I think. Some people have talked about using filters on the operators in order to filter out some of the weirdness that can happen from operators being slightly out of tune with each other, especially as you move up and down the keyboard or try to play musical lines.

yet, combining perfectly pure sine waves together is somehow TOO perfect, if you know what I mean. FM is extremely powerful, particularly for growl sounds, etc. Just trying to to find a way to goose a little more warmth out of it.

This is one of my Bazille sounds using 2 Osc's and through-zero FM with 2 non sine waveforms... one halfway between a sine and saw and the other a resonant waveform.

http://draigathar.org/sounds/B42.mp3

[Numanoid]

I'm looking forward to trying Sytrus when its ready for the mac. So many people love the way it sounds.

Sytrus is nice, but it most def don't come with VA operators.

It's got a tiny GUI and little of the hands on controls you would expect from an analog synth.

[BlackWinny]

Anyway i think that Nemesis, FM8 and Bazille are diifferent enough for using all three of them (at least for me).

Yeah, think so too, FM8 for the more "tradtional" DX approach, Bazille for the modular approach, and Nemesis for NeoFM synthesis

Totally agree!
I add just only one detail to point out: FM8 goes significatively far beyond the original DX7 in the ability of modulations between the operators.

And Octopus is also a very, very good complement (additive, FM, and sample-based with very comprehensive matrix of modulations between all the 8 oscillators) for someone who can't afford Bazille or FM8 or Nemesis or Sytrus which all four are excellent but perhaps quite expensive for some amateurs.

I really love Octopus! I use it for years (as well as FM8). Here are its features (all that for only €99):

• 2 independent sound generation modules
• 8 additive oscillators
• Each oscillator can contain up to 32 harmonics
• Each oscillator's spectrum is fully editable
• Each oscillator has sample-analysis capability
• Additive oscillators can be configured for 8-oscillator FM synthesis
• Waveforms can be easily edited by the user and new waveforms can be created in seconds
• Matrix-FM with 8 oscillators, full cross-modulation, adjustable feedback for any oscillator
• 8-slot sampler with adjustable keyboard range
• Sampler loads WAV/AIFF samples up to 24bit/192kHz
• 2 independent, multimode filters with modulatable cutoff and resonance
• Filters are available as FM sources
• Up to 32 envelopes with up to 64 host-syncable segments, free-run, loop and adjustable slope (curve)
• Envelope matrix offers modulation of amplitude, mix, panning, pitch, frequency, phase of any oscillator and filter cutoff and resonance
• Graphical envelope editor with advanced editing capabilities
• Envelopes can be scaled to keyboard and velocity independently
• A stereo effects section containing 4 effects units including chorus, delay, reverb and a 4-band parametric equalizer
• Warm tube-like distortion
• 2 sophisticated 32-step sequencers/arpeggiators
• Unison and Glide
• Microtuning support
• 12-voice polyphony (CPU dependent)
• Adjustable voice limit (1...12)
• Sample accurate timing
• Fully recognizes Velocity, Aftertouch, Pitch bend, Modwheel and various other MIDI controllers
• Envelopes, oscillator waves, sequences, and complete sound programs can be saved to disk and loaded from disk

[pdxindy]

And Octopus is also a very, very good complement for someone who can't afford Bazille

Octopus (which I really like) is $129 and you can currently buy Bazille (special pre-release offer) for $89

[Numanoid]

you can currently buy Bazille (special pre-release offer) for $89

Annoingly I get quoted NOK when I put it in my basket, which gives a currency conversion of $91,5

But when converted to pound $89 = £52,5

Wow, that is a rock bottom price

[Ingonator]

what is NeoFM?

Ingo, do you know what the Tone2 concept is?

First of all i think it is a way of finding a name for real frequency modulation opposing to phase modulation used in the majority of other FM synths including the Yamaha ones.
While for Sines and very simple "sinoid" waveforms it could sound similar there is a big difference for more complex waveforms.
Besides that there are different NeoFM modes adding another oscillator or Sub-Osc to the sound and also different Sync modes that combine Fm wit ha Synced sound.
Last but not least besides additional phase modulation modes (like in teh DX) there are modes not directly doing FM but e.g. Formant synthesis or phase distortion.

While maby e not as complex as Fm8 in terms of combining multiple operators alone the combination of real FM, the import of custom waveforms and the waveform editor make it different from oter FM synths.

I know that some "FM gurus" prefer synths like FM8 but for me besides quite simple operator configuarations FM8 is too complex for creating my own sounds. If for example i have a look at some of the patches Lotuzia has done in his commercial bank for Fm8 (which sounds great...) in several cases i have no clue how he achieved certain sounds (sometimes up to 4 oparators in a row including feedback). I could try to do the same but it would be more like trial and error.


Ingo

[BlackWinny]

what is NeoFM?

Ingo, do you know what the Tone2 concept is?

First of all i think it is a way of finding a name for real frequency modulation opposing to phase modulation used in the majority of other FM synths including the Yamaha ones.
While for Sines and very simple "sinoid" waveforms it could sound similar there is a big difference for more complex waveforms.
Besides that there are different NeoFM modes adding another oscillator or Sub-Osc to the sound and also different Sync modes that combine Fm wit ha Synced sound.
Last but not least besides additional phase modulation modes (like in teh DX) there are modes not directly doing FM but e.g. Formant synthesis or phase distortion.

While maby e not as complex as Fm8 in terms of combining multiple operators alone the combination of real FM, the import of custom waveforms and the waveform editor make it different from oter FM synths.

I know that some "FM gurus" prefer synths like FM8 but for me besides quite simple operator configuarations FM8 is too complex for creating my own sounds. If for example i have a look at some of the patches Lotuzia has done in his commercial bank for Fm8 (which sounds great...) in several cases i have no clue how he achieved certain sounds (sometimes up to 4 oparators in a row including feedback). I could try to do the same but it would be more like trial and error.


Ingo

I have needed not less than two years to master quite well FM8 in 2007-2008 (and I had FM7 before!). And even today, seven years later, there are many things that I don't master at all and other things that I just discover!


Oh! It can do that?
How the hell have I done to get that sound?!

[Echoes in the Attic]

Anyway i think that Nemesis, FM8 and Bazille are diifferent enough for using all three of them (at least for me).

Yeah, all 3 are quite different...

But unfortunately none are really what the OP was asking for. These three are distinctly digital. He was asking for analog style with fm.

[Numanoid]

But unfortunately none are really what the OP was asking for. These three are distinctly digital. He was asking for analog style with fm.

Bazille must be exactly what the OP is looking for:

"hybrid modular system: digital oscillators, analogue filters - unlimited patching capabilities".

Bazille is like Terminator: cybernetic organism, living tissue over a metal endoskeleton

[BlackWinny]

Anyway i think that Nemesis, FM8 and Bazille are diifferent enough for using all three of them (at least for me).

Yeah, all 3 are quite different...

But unfortunately none are really what the OP was asking for. These three are distinctly digital. He was asking for analog style with fm.

Analogue and FM synthesis is necessarily antinomic.

To be able to apply the FM theory of Chowning it has been required to wait for the digital ICs. That's why today so many people confuse the simple Frequency Modulation (which was available already in 1969 with the ARP 2600 with simply 2 oscillators based on relatively stable transistors but not totally stable) and the real FM synthesis (which requires more than 2 oscillators based on very stable digital logic ICs, and each one having representing a complex operator havin its own parameters, and with mathematical algorithms).

Frequency Modulation (in analogue subtractive synthesis) has nothing to do with the FM synthesis.

So... Vintage Analog and FM Synthesis are absolutely two different worlds, the former being the best with unstable components and th latter being the best with very stable components. That's why both are antinomic.

[Dewdman42]

what is chowning?

You can do FM synthesis with modulars. The problem is you'd need one hell of a massive modular with a hell of a lot of oscillators to do anything polyphonic.

[BlackWinny]

what is chowning?

You can do FM synthesis with modulars. The problem is you'd need one hell of a massive modular with a hell of a lot of oscillators to do anything polyphonic.

You talk about FM and you don't know who is John Chowning?


Talking about FM synthesis without even knowing the name of John Chowning is like talking about PCM wavetable synthesis without knowing Wolfgang Palm.

So before to talk about FM synthesis, first read John Chowning's book and you'll understand what I'm talking about when I say that you make a HUGE confusion between Frequency Modulation and FM Synthesis.

[BlackWinny]

what is chowning?

You can do FM synthesis with modulars. The problem is you'd need one hell of a massive modular with a hell of a lot of oscillators to do anything polyphonic.

You totally confuse Frequency modulation and FM synthesis.

You can download his book here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=chownin ... type%3Apdf

It is the first entry of the results.

Absolutely ALL the FM synthesis is based in John Chowning's researches at Standford and at the french IRCAM!

And in comparison, if you talk about the most simple Frequency Modulation, you have many examples in the Subtractive synthesis synthesizers of the 60's and 70's, the most common and the most known being the ARP 2600 of course.

[xh3rv]

Anyway i think that Nemesis, FM8 and Bazille are diifferent enough for using all three of them (at least for me).

Yeah, all 3 are quite different...

But unfortunately none are really what the OP was asking for. These three are distinctly digital. He was asking for analog style with fm.

Analogue and FM synthesis is necessarily antinomic.

To be able to apply the FM theory of Chowning it has been required to wait for the digital ICs. That's why today so many people confuse the simple Frequency Modulation (which was available already in 1969 with the ARP 2600 with simply 2 oscillators based on relatively stable transistors but not totally stable) and the real FM synthesis (which requires more than 2 oscillators based on very stable digital logic ICs, and each one having representing a complex operator havin its own parameters, and with mathematical algorithms).

Frequency Modulation (in analogue subtractive synthesis) has nothing to do with the FM synthesis.

So... Vintage Analog and FM Synthesis are absolutely two different worlds, the former being the best with unstable components and th latter being the best with very stable components. That's why both are antinomic.

This isn't completely accurate. There are useful ways to do FM on analog stuff, but it's perhaps more limited. Sean Costello of Valhalla DSP made a nice post on this over at GS: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/7863137-post37.html

Interestingly Bazille does in fact have linear FM modes in addition to PM.

NeoFM I believe employs spectral filtering techniques on complex carriers/modulators to do something like band limiting but much more aggressively. This is a very digital thing, FFT-flavored - it's distinctive, not sure how 'analog'.

[Dewdman42]

I certainly don't claim to be any kind of synthesis expert. I recently read this article, check the last paragraph:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may00/a ... /synth.htm

Anyway, just asking questions here, not trying to argue about FM history, which I know practically nothing about. Thanks for the Chowning book link though I will definitely have a look at that when I get some more time.