Does VST undo/redo finally work in Bitwig 2.0?

[imcubix]

Simple question for those who are already testing Bitwig 2.0..

Does undo/redo in Bitwig 2.0 finally work for VSTs and plugins?

It's one of the few things I really miss switching from Ableton Live. I've emailed support multiple times about this, and apparently it's a popular request, so I really hope this simple feature has made it into 2.0

[klavierr]

Even if it's not in 2.0 I'm sure it'll be in 2.x. Thank god Zebra2 has its own internal undo.

[imcubix]

I sure hope so... I still have my email request dated from February of 2015, telling me that "it's on the wishlist"

According to the email, it's complicated because a lot of VSTs don't report changes to its host. But why couldn't Bitwig just watch the VST parameters and set the undo/redo history with its own logic instead of listening to the VST's events? I mean, all VST parameters are exposed to and available in Bitwig, and whenever I change a parameter within the VST I can see the immediate change in the Bitwig module. So I don't see why exactly it's so complicated to implement a workaround--I'm a software developer myself and I feel like there could be many potential workarounds.

This is one of those small details that really add to the user experience. I'm sure Ableton found a solid workaround to implement this simple yet extremely useful feature. I can't see why the Bitwig team is unable to accomplish this.

[klavierr]

According to the email, it's complicated because a lot of VSTs don't report changes to its host. But why couldn't Bitwig just watch the VST parameters and set the undo/redo history with its own logic instead of listening to the VST's events?

What's weird is that in most of my VSTs there are at least one or two parameters that are not available on BW's device, either because BW doesn't pick it up from the GUI or because it can't exactly be represented well in a knob state.

[_TIP_]

I would love to see an undo for vst(i)'s in Bitwig, this is the main reason i don't use it anymore, it's nearly impossible to sound design without undo

[.jon]

I would love to see an undo for vst(i)'s in Bitwig, this is the main reason i don't use it anymore, it's nearly impossible to sound design without undo

I've actually never used undo when designing sounds I just turn the knob back if I didn't like the change.

[Rappo Clappo]

I would love to see an undo for vst(i)'s in Bitwig, this is the main reason i don't use it anymore, it's nearly impossible to sound design without undo

I've actually never used undo when designing sounds I just turn the knob back if I didn't like the change.

Hmmm... so if you would jump in front of a train, I assume I also should jump in front of a train. Interesting thought...

[Excds]

Having an undo function for a VST is quite a complicated problem. What a VST really is, is a complete other program that is free to do whatever it chooses. The only thing it promises is that it follows a contract to have some inputs and outputs as defined in API. Not everyone follows the contract properly and the developers of a VST are completely free to add lots of controls that they don't expose to the VST host.

So, to have working undo for VSTs you'd have to know about the internal workings of all the VSTs. It's kind of complicated.

If you instead of using the gui of the VST use the mapped Bitwig parameters, then you'll have undo. But still only for the exposed parameters.

[imcubix]

I would love to see an undo for vst(i)'s in Bitwig, this is the main reason i don't use it anymore, it's nearly impossible to sound design without undo

I've actually never used undo when designing sounds I just turn the knob back if I didn't like the change.

Well, a lot of people rely on undo/redo for sound design. It's much quicker and more convenient to just ctrl+z than to manually turn back a knob each time you want to revert the sound to the previous configuration. You might also forget the exact value and/or parameter of the previous sound, in which undo comes in very handy.

Having an undo function for a VST is quite a complicated problem. What a VST really is, is a complete other program that is free to do whatever it chooses. The only thing it promises is that it follows a contract to have some inputs and outputs as defined in API. Not everyone follows the contract properly and the developers of a VST are completely free to add lots of controls that they don't expose to the VST host.

So, to have working undo for VSTs you'd have to know about the internal workings of all the VSTs. It's kind of complicated.

If you instead of using the gui of the VST use the mapped Bitwig parameters, then you'll have undo. But still only for the exposed parameters.

I'm sure there's a workaround that makes it very possible. Otherwise why would DAWs like Live support host undo/redo for every VST that I've tried?

[humanbeingbeing]

I would love to see an undo for vst(i)'s in Bitwig, this is the main reason i don't use it anymore, it's nearly impossible to sound design without undo

I've actually never used undo when designing sounds I just turn the knob back if I didn't like the change.

Yeah that's not really a good solution, lacks precision, we're quite often dealing with many parameters and complex ui elements not just knobs... even out of principal it's not good...

Undo is important in modern apps: it alleviates apprehension, it helps overcome complexity and allows you to use your application confidently.

as has been pointed out before, Cubase and Live and other programs do this... Bitwig's vst implementation should try to follow the Steinberg standard which has an interface for redo/undo, it's not as complicated as people are making out.. it may complicated for Bitwig's implementation.

[Excds]

I'm sure there's a workaround that makes it very possible. Otherwise why would DAWs like Live support host undo/redo for every VST that I've tried?

I'm just saying that not everyone might have implemented undo/redo properly.

[Eta Carinae]

Even if it's not in 2.0 I'm sure it'll be in 2.x. Thank god Zebra2 has its own internal undo.

So even though it's not been here for the past 2 years, you just decide that you're "sure it'll be in 2.x"? Lol ok...

[Eta Carinae]

I would love to see an undo for vst(i)'s in Bitwig, this is the main reason i don't use it anymore, it's nearly impossible to sound design without undo

I've actually never used undo when designing sounds I just turn the knob back if I didn't like the change.

That's a really cool story.

[humanbeingbeing]

I'm sure there's a workaround that makes it very possible. Otherwise why would DAWs like Live support host undo/redo for every VST that I've tried?

I'm just saying that not everyone might have implemented undo/redo properly.

I think the question here is quite clear, does VST undo/redo work in Bitwig 2.0. Bitwig does not need to concern itself with poorly implemented VST's, it is simply obliged to act as a VST host. Bitwig 1.0 does not support the feature at all.

I will add that if they chose to overhaul their vst system from vst2>vst3 without addressing undo that is a spectacular mistake IMO. so Im interested to hear if it does work with Bw2.

[ras.s]

I'm in the same boat with .jon here, I've never used undo while sound designing. Or rather, I've never had a host capable of doing and I've never missed the feature. I think it might be even detrimental to my workflow. Say, I record a MIDI part and then modify it, transpose it or double it an octave above or quantise or whatever.. If I then modify the sound, but I would want to go back to the unmodified MIDI part it would mean losing all the changes I've made to the sound, which then would be a complete bummer (either I lose the sound or the unmodified MIDI part or I would have to make a mental note of making backups before modifying recordings, which would be a complete disaster).

A lot of people clearly want it though, can't argue against that.. And I completely agree that it's not exactly easy to always remember the exact value I previously had for a parameter. Might be nice as a separate undo buffer, available through a different key command.

This is worth quoting:

If you instead of using the gui of the VST use the mapped Bitwig parameters, then you'll have undo. But still only for the exposed parameters.

That is, undo for VST parameters is there already in the current version, sort of.

Perhaps the complication comes from there being multiple sources parameters can be adjusted from -- which would mean it would need to keep track of what it is that is changing the parameter, who knows.