Support Audio Units

[machinesworking]

I'm not saying they shouldn't have done it. I'm saying that for now they should stop Apple-centric development (this thread is about AU not M1, right??) and get on with DAW features and devices for everyone. They can go back to AU for v5.

I'm not sure how you're not seeing your own entitlement asking for a feature that will only benefit 20-25% of the user base, when the list of missing general-purpose features could fill several pages

That's disingenuous to attempt to paint me out as derailing the topic when you mentioned M1 development, and that's a nice way to put it.

The fact remains, you didn't complain when Bitwig introduced Windows specific touch screen support, yet you're complaining about them possibly introducing Apple specific support. You're also again coming up with numbers you couldn't possibly know. I recall a developer putting the numbers more at around 50 Win, 40 Mac, 10 Linux, but I don't really care. I'm OK with touch screen support that I can't use, I'm OK with AU support, I'm OK with a DAW that supports more than my OS, actually supporting the features of the other OS's it does support.

[antic604]

Again at 50/50 there's no way that Ableton's split is worse than it was when Apple was still on PPC chips, and there's no way that Bitwig is that much more Windows centric with it's sales. KVR and online forums are not solid indicators.

I'm not sure why you're bringing Live all the time?

If it had Linux it wouldn't likely have 25-30% of Linux users share, simply because in raw numbers the install base is much larger than Bitwig's, so the same Linux community would constitute a much smaller fraction. But with Bitwig, which is probably 5-10% of Ableton's install base it's entirely possible Linux is significant.

[antic604]

The fact remains, you didn't complain when Bitwig introduced Windows specific touch screen support...

I wasn't even aware of Bitwig's existence then.

[machinesworking]

BS, no nice way to put it, there's not a chance that 25% of Bitwigs sales are from Linux. You're literally pulling numbers out of your ass.

Again at 50/50 there's no way that Ableton's split is worse than it was when Apple was still on PPC chips, and there's no way that Bitwig is that much more Windows centric with it's sales. KVR and online forums are not solid indicators.

viewtopic.php?f=259&t=517567

I ran the same poll on FB (don't have account there anymore - look it up if you do) and there it was - as I already said - slightly more favourable to macOS, but still around 20% Bitwig.

Sure, it's just internet polls, but far from b/s

It's simply not accurate to use KVR, like I mentioned for years it was notoriously Windows centric, partly because for years VSTs worked better on Windows and partly because Apple bought Logic and discontinued the Windows version. KVR is no barometer, no internet forum is. Bitwig themselves are literally the only ones who could tell you.

The only DAWs I would draw the conclusion that the market is geared towards Mac or PC without direct knowledge are DP and FL Studio. Since both recently introduced versions for Windows and Mac OS respectively.

And Again, your logic sucks here, dominant market share, if a DAW is cross platform should not determine what is supported or not, or what gets priority. You either support what an OS has to offer or you stick to one OS.

I've said it before, Bitwig should natively support VSTs in Linux without Wine etc. They have the capability to do that, and they make a Linux build. It has nothing to do with my needs and everything about making the experience in Bitwig great for everyone.

[machinesworking]

The fact remains, you didn't complain when Bitwig introduced Windows specific touch screen support...

I wasn't even aware of Bitwig's existence then.

OK then, what are you complaining about then? You have the knowledge now of how they operate, they support what an OS has to offer if they can, so AU support would be a natural progression of a known pattern.

You sold Bitwig, I'm not sure where this concern is coming from, it seems more like you just want to argue.

[machinesworking]

I'm not sure why you're bringing Live all the time?

Don't act coy, the same market segment is being marketed to by both companies, that's just a fact no matter how much people want to distance Bitwig from Live.

Comparing Cubase, DP or Logic to Bitwig makes no sense. Comparing Live and Bitwig is flat logical no matter how butthurt people get.


Seriously, you sold Bitwig to go back to Live...

[antic604]

I've said it before, Bitwig should natively support VSTs in Linux without Wine etc. They have the capability to do that, and they make a Linux build. It has nothing to do with my needs and everything about making the experience in Bitwig great for everyone.

Bitwig does support VSTs on Linux without Wine. Linux' versions of VST, just like you need to have macOS versions of VST on Apple computers. Plus there's other ways to run Windows' VSTs on Linux without Wine.

You sold Bitwig, I'm not sure where this concern is coming from, it seems more like you just want to argue.

I bought it back 3 weeks after.

And I'll reiterate again - I've nothing about AS support and AU support, but since they've spent a lot of time on the former just recently, now it's time to focus on other things and come back to the former for the release of v5.

Touch support is far from finished and you don't see me complaining about it all the time, because I realise it's something that only small minority will benefit from.

Don't act coy, the same market segment is being marketed to by both companies, that's just a fact no matter how much people want to distance Bitwig from Live.

I'm just talking about numbers.

Imagine Bitwig has 100 users, Live has 100000.

Considering there's a fixed number of Linux musicians, say 5000 of them, then if 25% used Bitwig that would constitute 25% of its userbase. But even if 1000 users would use Live on Linux, that would only be 1% of that respective user base. That's why you shouldn't compare them IN THIS PARTICULAR CONTEXT.

[machinesworking]

Don't act coy, the same market segment is being marketed to by both companies, that's just a fact no matter how much people want to distance Bitwig from Live.

I'm just talking about numbers.

Imagine Bitwig has 100 users, Live has 100000.

Considering there's a fixed number of Linux musicians, say 5000 of them, then if 25% used Bitwig that would constitute 25% of its userbase. But even if 1000 users would use Live on Linux, that would only be 1% of that respective user base. That's why you shouldn't compare them IN THIS PARTICULAR CONTEXT.

Lol, you're losing the plot here. Market share is one thing, sales is another. Ableton could make money off of a 1% user base if they supported Linux, because that would easily be 10,000 users considering they announced 2 million unique users ten years ago.

Absolutely none of that has anything to do with the fact that a developer told me in 2005 or so that Live sales were 50/50 Mac PC. Live and Bitwig target the same market share, the sales amounts aren't the point, the audience for the product is.

I simply think you're internet surveys are garbage. No nice way to put it. There's not a chance in hell that Linux sales of Bitwig match Mac.

[apoclypse]

BS, no nice way to put it, there's not a chance that 25% of Bitwigs sales are from Linux. You're literally pulling numbers out of your ass.

Again at 50/50 there's no way that Ableton's split is worse than it was when Apple was still on PPC chips, and there's no way that Bitwig is that much more Windows centric with it's sales. KVR and online forums are not solid indicators.

viewtopic.php?f=259&t=517567

I ran the same poll on FB (don't have account there anymore - look it up if you do) and there it was - as I already said - slightly more favourable to macOS, but still around 20% Bitwig.

Sure, it's just internet polls, but far from b/s

Your polls form an incomplete picture. There is no detail there. Other polls has shown us that Bitwig barely makes it outside of the "other" category when it comes to DAW polls. 25% would probably still be a significant number of users for Bitwig, but we haven't even looked at revenue per platform. Which users are updating more regularly and spending more money. Traditionally the Apple platform has the users that are most willing to spend and that generate the most revenue. Just ask Google when they compare their revenues vs the iOS ecosystem, it's not even really a contest. Adobe probably has less Mac users but still makes a significant part of their revenue in the Apple ecosystem.

The polls you posted don't really say much imo.

[aMUSEd]

I don't care about polls, for me the main reason I want au support is the plugins that don't come in any other format on Mac. The 'universality' argument doesn't stand up when you take into account the fact that it doesn't really exist, so many plugin companies these days have deprecated VST2 on Mac, much more than on Windows, so there is already an inequality. There are also some companies that only develop for Mac, just as some only develop for Windows. Real equity take account of difference and doesn't try to make everything the same.

[machinesworking]

I don't care about polls, for me the main reason I want au support is the plugins that don't come in any other format on Mac. The 'universality' argument doesn't stand up when you take into account the fact that it doesn't really exist, so many plugin companies these days have deprecated VST2 on Mac, much more than on Windows, so there is already an inequality. There are also some companies that only develop for Mac, just as some only develop for Windows. Real equity take account of difference and doesn't try to make everything the same.

Having been in the game long enough to remember what VST compatibility was like on Mac in 2000, I can vouch for this. One of the reasons AU came into being in the first place was the poor adoption for Mac OS that VST developers were doing, leaving in all kinds of Windows specific code in the plug in causing all kinds of instability. Compare any of that to MAS, Digital Performers internal format that some developers coded for back then and the stability was light years apart.

That said VST2 is mostly stable on Mac OS these days. Too bad it's a dead man walking and VST3 is again not that stable on Mac OS in my experience. It's the same as it ever was, Steinberg release decent plug in coding docs and almost no hosting docs. So for instance MOTU have solid VST2 support for DP, but VST3 is a work in progress. Even with Bitwig the least likely to be stable format is VST3. AU hosting is well documented because Apple have an interest in competing DAWs, unlike Steinberg.

[antic604]

Lol, you're losing the plot here. Market share is one thing, sales is another. Ableton could make money off of a 1% user base if they supported Linux, because that would easily be 10,000 users considering they announced 2 million unique users ten years ago.

Absolutely none of that has anything to do with the fact that a developer told me in 2005 or so that Live sales were 50/50 Mac PC. Live and Bitwig target the same market share, the sales amounts aren't the point, the audience for the product is.

I simply think you're internet surveys are garbage. No nice way to put it. There's not a chance in hell that Linux sales of Bitwig match Mac.

Are you somehow personally threatened by the possibility macOS isn't near 50% of Bitwig's user base? What's up with that?

...but we haven't even looked at revenue per platform. Which users are updating more regularly and spending more money. Traditionally the Apple platform has the users that are most willing to spend and that generate the most revenue. Just ask Google when they compare their revenues vs the iOS ecosystem, it's not even really a contest...

Comparison to iOS isn't a valid one, though. The apps on Android are usually of much worse quality and piracy is rampant there.

...The polls you posted don't really say much imo.

The poll was clear - where you're running Bitwig? So I doubt many people who installed it on Linux once and never updated/opened again even participated. And obviously I'm aware the poll is on a "geek" site and on the Internet, where you can expect Linux to be more popular than in "real life", that's why I mentioned the difference between KVR and FB, where the results were - if I recall - 30% Linux vs. 20% macOS on KvR and 20% vs. 30% respectively on FB.

[machinesworking]

Are you somehow personally threatened by the possibility macOS isn't near 50% of Bitwig's user base? What's up with that?

Not at all. I used Mac OS in 2000 when it was 10% of the user base (for VSTs anyway).

And this is flat deflection, that's all. Off the cuff I would bet a realistic market share for Bitwig would look more like 50% Windows, 40% Mac and 10% Linux. Which is about what one of the developers mentioned in an interview.
https://www.bitwig.com/stories/dawbench ... anson-135/

At 47:50 I'm going to bellieve him over your KVR numbers.

Again, your "concern" is simply chauvinism, in your head Windows = big market share, anything that doesn't benefit Windows is of lessor interest. You complained about M1 support as well. So don't try to paint it out as less than that.

[antic604]

...would bet a realistic market share for Bitwig would look more like 50% Windows, 40% Mac and 10% Linux. Which is about what one of the developers mentioned in an interview.
https://www.bitwig.com/stories/dawbench ... anson-135/

At 47:50 I'm going to bellieve him over your KVR numbers.

Thanks! I listened to this when it was first published but somehow never registered that. Still, he's "guessing" which is a bit weird...

Again, your "concern" is simply chauvinism, in your head Windows = big market share, anything that doesn't benefit Windows is of lessor interest. You complained about M1 support as well. So don't try to paint it out as less than that.

I'm really trying not to be. I'll probably switch to M1X laptop as soon as they become available. All I'm saying is devs just recently spent several months on AS compatibility, so for now they should go back to generic features. I wouldn't mind AU support in v5 or whatever. I'd be pissed off if this was the headline 4.1 feature however, instead of MIDI comping, MIDI out from Grid or some useful device like native convolution reverb or additive synth...

That's all, really.

[machinesworking]

Thanks! I listened to this when it was first published but somehow never registered that. Still, he's "guessing" which is a bit weird...

You gonna doubt the owners of the company now?
I would guess that his guesses are based on actual numbers, but no developer likes actually quoting numbers. 5-10% seems entirely accurate. There are two reasons that I would guess slightly higher PC use with Bitwig, Mac users love Live, I would guess at least here in the states Bitwig has made no headroom, I know no other Bitwig users here, everyone I know who uses Live uses a Mac. The amount of PCs at Live meetups here is minuscule, and I'm in Seattle about 25 miles from Microsoft HQ. Secondly, for people like me that lived through bad ports of Windows software, the white curser and right hand side Windows style buttons is a huge red flag. I mean right away some people will pass on it thinking if they can't even nail basic Mac OS GUI elements then what else are they porting badly? I would say of anything Bitwig have done that flatly loses them sales to mac users, it's this, for the reason mentioned. Even knowing that they do a fantastic job at mac ports, this part still makes me wonder what they were thinking??

The early M1 port is massive good will publicity for them IMO.

I'm really trying not to be. I'll probably switch to M1X laptop as soon as they become available. All I'm saying is devs just recently spent several months on AS compatibility, so for now they should go back to generic features. I wouldn't mind AU support in v5 or whatever. I'd be pissed off if this was the headline 4.1 feature however, instead of MIDI comping, MIDI out from Grid or some useful device like native convolution reverb or additive synth...

That's all, really.

I think you're missing the fact that AU3 on Big Sur is allowing iOS plug ins to work in DAWs that support AU. Moog Model 15 is the first one, but it's looking like AU3 is going to be a thing, getting new features, not being a pain to code for etc. etc. Meanwhile VST3 has took what? 10 years to make any headway at all? and only because Steinberg forced it. It's not too bad in Bitwig but VST3 plug ins are the only ones that have hung Bitwig, froze the interface. My only "crash" with the program. In DP11 about 25% of them crash DP's tougher plug in evaluation.

Windows will be able to use VST2 forever, but there's no guarantees that Mac OS will continue to be able to use VST2.

Also, I think Bitwig are smart enough to throw some huge bone to everyone if they did in fact add AU support, MIDI comping and MIDI out from the Grid sound fantastic to me as compensation.