U-He Diva Sostenuto Pedal CC66 not working?

[Urs]

Tried FM-8. That's ridiculous. I can see how it's useful, but I can't see how that was ever how Hold was supposed to work.

[#rob]

Which one is the correct behaviour?

Guess there's only one way to find out. Urs, we'll have to clear a room and get a piano.

[Urs]

Which one is the correct behaviour?

Guess there's only one way to find out. Urs, we'll have to clear a room and get a piano.

Yes, one with legato mode!

[Howard]

zvenx - Legend doesn't appear to react to CC64 (sustain), so I wouldn't count that as a good example. I don't have Halion 6, Massive, Korg Odyssey and Monark - does Sustain work in mono modes?

How it should be again: In legato mode, Sustain should only sustain the envelope, not freeze the pitch. In mono mode Sustain should do the same, but Note On should retrigger - as well as Note Off if a key is still being physically held. In either mode it should sustain of course

[zvenx]

zvenx - Legend doesn't appear to react to CC64 (sustain), so I wouldn't count that as a good example. I don't have Halion 6, Massive, Korg Odyssey and Monark - does Sustain work in mono modes?

Legend does at my end. Do you have the latest? That may be one of the add ons Richard did past the release version.
Monark doesn't, but the others do respond to Sustain in mono mode.
rsp

[Howard]

Thanks zvenx. No, I don't have the latest yet.
(...now I do)

[zvenx]

Thanks zvenx. No, I don't have the latest yet.

Most welcome Howard.
rsp

[EvilDragon]

Errrm, when you hold C, then press Sustain pedal, then press D - you get D. When you lift D, it naturally remains at D because Hold pedal still pressed...?

No, it shouldn't work like that, it doesn't work like that on many hardware synths I've tried (and plugins too). Howard explains it well, but here's audio:

https://app.box.com/shared/exs82xs4ni

First is with sustain pedal (wrong, not going back to C), then it's without sustain pedal.

It should sound identical regardless of sustain pedal being pressed. Why? Because pitch is not supposed to be frozen, if we're holding a key then just shortly tapping another key and letting it go, it should return back to last key still being held (and then go backwards in the notes buffer for as many older still held keys).

Ask yourself why Jordan Rudess can play those ridiculously fast but endlessly legatoed solos. Because he has the sustain pedal in mono mode pressed down all the time. And yes, his trills are not eaten up by sustain pedal on the gear he uses. But it goes beyond Rudess, many players use this feature (provided their board does work like that, but most do).


Real-life example. There are a few places in this solo where using sustain pedal would be completely ruining the performance with u-he (and some other previously mentioned in this thread) synths, and playing it WITHOUT sustain pedal would result in a disjointed mess of notes. Feel free to try it, I can provide sheet music since I transcribed it (http://www.mediafire.com/view/73sfgqm77 ... o.png/file)

https://app.box.com/shared/u21jla3qdr


Sorry for the thread hijack, OP. But to add to it - sostenuto pedal can be important for certain performances with piano-like sounds. So yes, I agree it should be added to u-he synths

[zvenx]

@ED, I just tested it on my three remaining connected hardware synths.
Roland S-760..... I couldnt' remember how to set mono/legato on it.
But
both Korg T-2 and Roland JV-2080 do behave as you described.
rsp

[sebber]

Tried FM-8. That's ridiculous. I can see how it's useful, but I can't see how that was ever how Hold was supposed to work.

Are you talking about Sustain or Sostenuto? I don't know how FM8's sustain function works. I gave it as example for sostenuto.

[sebber]

Yes, Repros, too.

Let me explain this shortly once again.

1. Mono or mono legato playback mode
2. Hold a middle C note, then keep fat staccato tapping D right next to it while the C is still held down, so that you get a C-D-C-D-C-D-C-D trill -> that works as it's supposed to
3. Do the same thing with sustain pedal -> doesn't return back to C at all, it should behave exactly the same as when sustain pedal isn't pressed

I tend to disagree. First, it's hard to compare a polyphonic instrument like the piano to a monophonic synth. But even so, I would expect the D as the last note on a monophonic synth to sound, not the C. Sustain is keeping the last triggered voice, not the first. That is, btw, the exact difference to sostenuto, which would keep the first voice.

[sebber]

Yes, Repros, too.

Let me explain this shortly once again.

1. Mono or mono legato playback mode
2. Hold a middle C note, then keep fat staccato tapping D right next to it while the C is still held down, so that you get a C-D-C-D-C-D-C-D trill -> that works as it's supposed to
3. Do the same thing with sustain pedal -> doesn't return back to C at all, it should behave exactly the same as when sustain pedal isn't pressed

I tend to disagree. First, it's hard to compare a polyphonic instrument like the piano to a monophonic synth. But even so, I would expect the D as the last note on a monophonic synth to sound, not the C. Sustain is keeping the last triggered voice, not the first. That is, btw, the exact difference to sostenuto, which would keep the first voice.

Real-life example. There are a few places in this solo where using sustain pedal would be completely ruining the performance with u-he (and some other previously mentioned in this thread) synths, and playing it WITHOUT sustain pedal would result in a disjointed mess of notes. Feel free to try it, I can provide sheet music since I transcribed it (http://www.mediafire.com/view/73sfgqm77 ... o.png/file)

https://app.box.com/shared/u21jla3qdr

I looked at the score and listened to the music and to me it doesn't sound like a trill, which would start envelopes with each attack. What we have here is vibrato, and I guess he's using either pitch bend or probably more likely aftertouch with a preprogrammed pitch interval.

Sorry for the double post, can't delete it. Please ignore.

[sebber]

This is what the sostenuto pedal is for. I know, this is piano. But you can also imagine any other pad sound, where you just keep a sound and play on top of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMGwPDP-Yk

[EvilDragon]

I looked at the score and listened to the music and to me it doesn't sound like a trill, which would start envelopes with each attack. What we have here is vibrato, and I guess he's using either pitch bend or probably more likely aftertouch with a preprogrammed pitch interval.

Sorry for the double post, can't delete it. Please ignore.

The trill was just a showcase point. There are several other places in that piece that would break when using sustain pedal in u-he synths, that are not trills, and not vibrato (all the vibratos are just pitch bend, aftertouch sucks for vibrato IMHO). For example, bar 11 is done by holding that D all the time and just tapping all the other keys staccato, with sustain pedal pressed. This part is murdered with u-he synths The 4th-to-1st finger same key repetition in bar 13 would also be murdered. There are also short trills in bars 2, 4, 8 and 9.

Pitch shouldn't be frozen by sustain pedal, period. It has nothing to do with how piano works this time, though - it's how it works on a great majority of hardware synths that I have played over the years. Nearly any rompler works like that - and for a good reason.

Sustain is keeping the last triggered voice, not the first. That is, btw, the exact difference to sostenuto, which would keep the first voice.

Exactly, it keeps the last triggered voice. So check this out: when you DON'T press the sustain pedal, and you hold your C key down, now play D while still holding that C (in mono mode), it goes from C to D, that's fine. But now you release that D and D is released and it goes BACK TO C, because you're still holding that C. So now C is the LAST TRIGGERED VOICE, because monophonic mode in u-he synths has retrigger to previously held notes on note release. So even with sustain pedal it should retrigger back to it. Get it?

And sostenuto is not supposed to keep the first voice. Sostenuto is supposed to hold ALL voices whose keys are HELD DOWN in the moment when sostenuto pedal has been pressed, and NOT hold anything that has been played during sostenuto pedal being pressed.

[sebber]

The trill was just a showcase point. There are several other places in that piece that would break when using sustain pedal in u-he synths, that are not trills, and not vibrato (all the vibratos are just pitch bend, aftertouch sucks for vibrato IMHO). For example, bar 11 is done by holding that D all the time and just tapping all the other keys staccato, with sustain pedal pressed. This part is murdered with u-he synths The 4th-to-1st finger same key repetition in bar 13 would also be murdered. There are also short trills in bars 2, 4, 8 and 9.

Pitch shouldn't be frozen by sustain pedal, period. It has nothing to do with how piano works this time, though - it's how it works on a great majority of hardware synths that I have played over the years. Nearly any rompler works like that - and for a good reason.

Sorry, but I disagree. First for the solo: if you have a synth that has "lowest note priority" you could simply play it in the tapping style you describe by holding the lowest note in the described places. You can - think Czerny's "School of Velocity" - also simply play it with your fingers, that is totally doable. I wonder if he really uses the sustain pedal here at all, it sounds like mono legato mode with a little glide to me. Playing it in the tapping style is _not_ any easier, because you can't just play staccato and hope it's fast enough but you have to lift your fingers exactly in time and that's actually more difficult than just concentrating to play the thing with your fingers as you would normally.

You're claiming that there's a standard use for the sustain pedal on synths in mono mode and there isn't. Your example with holding the C and playing on the D is a prime example for selective dampers: on a piano you would do that by holding down the C with your finger or by using the sostenuto pedal on the C. That has nothing to do with the sustain pedal at all, which just lifts all the dampers up and down. The C wouldn't be there if you wouldn't _hold_ it with your finger and keeping that specific damper up. Now, to transfer that to a monophonic instrument is difficult, because your fingers and the pedal give different signs and there's no standard.

You could say that a) lifting the pedal should make the synth go back to the C, because your finger still holds it. That would be then the peculiar case where not moving your fingers on a fret board or the violin or on the keyboard or on the trumpet would move the pitch by the use of a pedal. I don't know of any acoustic instrument that can move the pitch with a pedal (now that I read it the second time I can: an abused harp and the timpani)

However, you could also say that b) the D is that last played key and is therefore being sustained when using the sustain pedal. Simple as that. Regardless if any other keys are still depressed. This can be a feature e.g. when you want to play a solo where your fingers can't get away from the keys as fast as you want to play and the sustain pedal helps you play the melodic line and not all the wrong notes in between.

I'm sure there are even more ways to go, however, there's no single logic way to go about it. The sustain pedal on a piano is too much a different technology to the voice allocation in a monophonic synth, whether legato mode or not.

And sostenuto is not supposed to keep the first voice. Sostenuto is supposed to hold ALL voices whose keys are HELD DOWN in the moment when sostenuto pedal has been pressed, and NOT hold anything that has been played during sostenuto pedal being pressed.

On a polyphonic instrument, yes. On a monophonic instrument it could well be designed that the sustain key holds the last key (option B above) and the sostenuto would keep the "fall back" note.

We're really talking about concepts for keyboard polyphonic instruments on monophonic instruments like the cello and that leads to confusion. Even if you put a piano style pedal on a cello the pitch wouldn't change if the fingers don't change. On the piano, too, all that's happening is that sounds (the D) fade away, they don't simply jump to other pitches (the C). A sample player is being catered to the polyphonic keyboarder crowd, I reckon: pianists, organists, string ensemble. It's not really a monophonic synths with which you can do different tricks and it should be like that.