who has perfect pitch?

[Radek]

Since 1600 or so western music has employed various different forms of intonation:

Just intonation is the most pure, in the sense that it employs acoustically pure consonances. The problem is that the nature of acoustics (and the dreaded Pythagorean comma) limits one to only a few keys and a few octaves.

To deal with this, the system of temperament called meantone was employed, which retains the acoustically pure thirds while narrowing the fifths and fourths. This was the regnant system when Bach was writing his early music. It allows for 8 different keys and has a rich harmonic coloration that changes from key to key (which is the historical origin of the notion that there are mood/key associations). Meantone was very slowly replaced with equal temperament. It didn't happen overnight the way midi has. There is reason to believe that the well tempered clavier is in fact written in an intonation different from the one we use today.

A different intonation is completely different from a different tuning. The relationships between the intervals don't change in equal temperament, no matter what middle A is. Conversely, a keyboard in meantone intonation will sound different from a keyboard in equal temperament., even if middle A=440 on both of them...........

There has been a lot of really untrue stuff asserted here. But the worst is the part about certain keys having certain moods.

In equal temperament ALL KEYS ARE HARMONICALLY IDENTICAL!!!

And as for whether having absolute pitch makes it easier or harder to be a musician: NO ONE CAN KNOW THIS. This is because one only knows ones own experiences, and one either does or does not have absolute pitch. Meaning that one can't intelligently evaluate the experiences of others who are different.

I can say (from my experiences) having the "perfect pitch" would be making my life easier early... Today however, it doesn't matter really as at the end is the results what are important. If you are proficient with a instrument then you will be always better than someone less capable but with this "PP".

I can improvise like crazy and making new riffs, melodies aren't a problem for me. Unless I had to transcribe the "PP" is useless for me. It's all about the expresion and ability to let it flow.

Bach had a "PP" for sure however his music excellence was far more due to his intellect than just this ability. You see... you would find (probably) many idiots with "PP" and with zero musical abilities too...

After all it a musicality and it's counting the most. How you will achieve it isn't important.

Yes, I know one person (guitarist) with (very) perfect pitch. If you would meet him once you would be totally in an awe... However if you had to meet him more times this impression would dimish...

[Hink]

Since 1600 or so western music has employed various different forms of intonation:

Just intonation is the most pure, in the sense that it employs acoustically pure consonances. The problem is that the nature of acoustics (and the dreaded Pythagorean comma) limits one to only a few keys and a few octaves.

To deal with this, the system of temperament called meantone was employed, which retains the acoustically pure thirds while narrowing the fifths and fourths. This was the regnant system when Bach was writing his early music. It allows for 8 different keys and has a rich harmonic coloration that changes from key to key (which is the historical origin of the notion that there are mood/key associations). Meantone was very slowly replaced with equal temperament. It didn't happen overnight the way midi has. There is reason to believe that the well tempered clavier is in fact written in an intonation different from the one we use today.

A different intonation is completely different from a different tuning. The relationships between the intervals don't change in equal temperament, no matter what middle A is. Conversely, a keyboard in meantone intonation will sound different from a keyboard in equal temperament., even if middle A=440 on both of them...........

There has been a lot of really untrue stuff asserted here. But the worst is the part about certain keys having certain moods.

In equal temperament ALL KEYS ARE HARMONICALLY IDENTICAL!!!

And as for whether having absolute pitch makes it easier or harder to be a musician: NO ONE CAN KNOW THIS. This is because one only knows ones own experiences, and one either does or does not have absolute pitch. Meaning that one can't intelligently evaluate the experiences of others who are different.

I can say (from my experiences) having the "perfect pitch" would be making my life easier early... Today however, it doesn't matter really as at the end is the results what are important. If you are proficient with a instrument then you will be always better than someone less capable but with this "PP".

I can improvise like crazy and making new riffs, melodies aren't a problem for me. Unless I had to transcribe the "PP" is useless for me. It's all about the expresion and ability to let it flow.

Bach had a "PP" for sure however his music excellence was far more due his intellect than just this ability. You see... you would find (probably) many idiots with "PP" and with zero musical abilities too...

After all it a musicality and it's counting the most. How you will it achieved isn't important.

Yes, I know one person (guitarist) with (very) perfect pitch. If you would meet him once you would be totally in an awe... However if you had to meet him more times this impression would dimish...

nicely put, I agree that if I were to have perfect pitch at an early age it would of made life easier. However looking back I'm glad it wasn't easier. I learned a lot the hardway, but love every minute of it...the thrill of learning and growing still remains...

[herodotus]

sorry my friend but you're mistaken minor and major keys are not harmonically identical...

Those are tonalities, to be precise.

But to amend: All major keys are harmonically identical to each other.

As are all minor keys identical to each other.

But lets quote an expert:

Equal temperament solves or escapes the problem of the pythagorean comma by dividing the octave into mathematically equal intervals, all equally imperfect, and all equally discordant. Only the octave remains acoustically correct. In equal temperament all keys sound the same.

The thing is, that harmony started with acoustically pure intervals. These intervals are the centerpiece of all of harmonic history, and almost no one ever hears them anymore.

Absolute pitch in the sense that it is usually used is a matter of memory. Memory of our compromise tuning system. The recognition of harmonically pure concordant intervals would be much more compelling proof of 'innate musicality'. Partly because no one has a chance to memorize them, as hardly anyone is ever exposed to them. And partly because they are what started it all. What a shame that the experience of them has become so uncommon.

I am serious here. Look at what the people at this website have to say. It will change how you look at this stuff forever.

[Gregjazz]

Absolute pitch in the sense that it is usually used is a matter of memory. Memory of our compromise tuning system.

Yup, exactly! I have perfect pitch, and it's just pitch memory. If someone plays a middle C, I recognize it, because I have heard it before.

[Z3R0T0N1N]

thanx for your posts herodotus; very interesting and informative stuff. you have motivated me to read and try and learn more about it.
i used to know at least a bit about Pythagorus' contribution to music theory, but alas it has been stored in an almost inaccessible part of my brain.
cheers.

[soulata]

Now you've got me really interested. Any good PP lessons around?

I've heard there are schools that teach PP, I'd rateher try the DIY way.

k

[Peel]

Herodotus, there's lots of information in your posts, but are you sure you know what "perfect pitch" is? Because in all of them, your information seem a little mismatched with the point you seem to be trying to make.
For example, all keys (EG: C-major & D-major) are NOT identical to somebody with perfect pitch. They're identical in terms of relative pitch (although that is true regardless of what tuning system you use). Intervals/scales don't enter into it.
I do share your advocacy for investigating non-12TET tuning systems, though! But simply having the ear for non-12TET tunings has nothing to do with perfect pitch.

[neverwhere2012]

i want perfect pitch so i can be like this guy.

[bluedad]

how many times in this thread do we have to see this guy??

[herodotus]

Herodotus, there's lots of information in your posts, but are you sure you know what "perfect pitch" is? Because in all of them, your information seem a little mismatched with the point you seem to be trying to make.
For example, all keys (EG: C-major & D-major) are NOT identical to somebody with perfect pitch. They're identical in terms of relative pitch (although that is true regardless of what tuning system you use). Intervals/scales don't enter into it.
I do share your advocacy for investigating non-12TET tuning systems, though! But simply having the ear for non-12TET tunings has nothing to do with perfect pitch.

What I was trying to do was to deconstruct this extremely dubious notion of perfect pitch, and the musical innacuracies that surround it.

For instance, in your example of c major and d major, these are identical in equal temperament, but that is not, repeat NOT true if you use meantone or just intonation.

Put it in a nutshell, if perfect pitch is an exhaustive memory of the pitches of our current A440
equal tempered scale then I have never said it didn't exist or that it wasn't useful.

What I have been saying is

1. There is nothing perfect about the equal tempered scale.

2. There is nothing natural about the equal tempered scale.

3. There is no particular musical ability other than training and memory involved in having 'perfect pitch' in this sense.

There were also a couple of points about how the belief in different 'moods' for different keys comes from the days of meantone when there were in fact substantial harmonic differences between keys.

Finally, it seems strange that 'perfect pitch' is used to describe this exhaustive memory of a compromise tuning system. Pitch memory seems much more appropriate.

But there are people in the world who can, upon hearing a tone, find and sing any number of acoustically pure concordant intervals with it. This truly musical skill is nameless and obscure. But it seems much more worthy of the title of 'perfect pitch' than an exhaustive memory of a compromise tuning system.

With that, I must take my leave of this thread, which has already consumed my entire weekend.